Does anybody here live a frum lifestyle but not believe...

marina

Sun, Feb 15 2015, 2:06 am

amother wrote:

See my edit, but it seems God does. This world is one of hester panim, and apparantly if He wanted it to be simple He would make it so.

But as I mentioned earlier, the basic premise for this argument is that God exists, here's why it's not something easily proven, if at all.

If you don't start with this premise, it's hard to have a conversation about faith. At least for me. Wink

Answering "if God wanted it He would have made it so" pretty much shuts down any conversation.

chani8

Sun, Feb 15 2015, 4:59 am

I can't believe people would believe in science which is only how old? Verses a mesorah that's more than 5000 years old.

Those who want to run away from frumkeit are a mess because of halacha. If I had learned halacha before I believed in G-d, before I had a relationship with Him, I'd be a skeptic, too. I mean, who is He that I would want to do all of these things for Him???

But I came at it from the other direction. I met Him, I saw His goodness, I knew clearly that He had saved my life more than once. I came to love Him. So then I asked, "How can I serve Him? I want to please Him How can I do that?" Enter the Torah.

I'm also so glad I read chumash before ever learning halacha. And that my first introduction to modern halacha was by reading Blu Greenberg's book. Unfortunately, with little else available for beginners, I ended up immersed in charedi hashkafa and halacha. But I can assure you that had I been born into charedi halacha, I would be the OP of this thread!

So, it's not G-d's fault your frum lifestyle is so disappointing and stifling, OP. Go back to the basics, like, Who is G-d, Why should I love Him? And then proceed from there. Just don't ask, 'Who made this current halacha?' because when you learn it's not G-d given, you might not stay so frum.

imasoftov

Sun, Feb 15 2015, 6:44 am

amother wrote:

Did you read the article?

Mr. Scientist (not you, gp.2) believes in science's ability to provide all the answers, even though the more answers are presented the more questions are raised. So evidence that science will one day have the TRUTH is not yet here. It's a matter of belief.

Oy I'm not as eloquent as that guy. What

Mrs Engineer here neither believes that all "the answers" will eventually be found nor recalls any of her teachers attempting to convince her of that. But maybe they leave the heavy-duty indoctrination for the pure science majors?

But here are several things I find unsatisfying about "we can't explain this, so it must be God". Even if we may never be able to explain it, we will never know that we won't be able to, and we might be wrong, but we won't know that either until such time as we do find an explanation. Another is that the lack of an explanation doesn't prove that God is the explanation. And a third is that "God is the explanation" isn't really an explanation. It seems to me that it's more of a non-explanation.

As both a practitioner of science and of religion I think that "we don't know all the answers (yet)" is an acceptable answer in both.

amother

Sun, Feb 15 2015, 7:47 am

imasoftov wrote:

So you're not using one to negate the other. You're saying our knowledge isn't perfect in either realm.

That's not a contradiction to anything I've said. At least I don't think so... Gotta read everything again.

But the humble acknowledgement of our intellectual limitations is what's missing in many such discussions.

PinkFridge

Sun, Feb 15 2015, 7:53 am

amother wrote:

I want to believe. But after seeing some terrible tragedies, I cannot accept that "this is for the good". I get that g-d knows and we don't. But having young innocent children pass way, and saying that g-d is always good. That's a real struggle.

Yes, it is. And Hug

that this has been part of your life. But people have been through so much in history. Somehow they got through. When I hear memes like "G-d is always good," etc., I take them as tools that others have used, it worked for them, maybe it will work for me.
It's interesting that we can learn about tragedies through history, from the churban through WWII, and when it hits us personally, that's when the questions really hit us. (I include us, having been through a pretty big loss as a teen.)

ETA: I'm hoping I'm not coming across as callous in any way. That's the furthest thing from my mind.
When I daven I look at the words. Especially in the pesukei d'zimra after Ashrei, and Shemone Esrei. I try to believe that Hashem loves converts, encourages orphans and widows, heals the broken-hearted, and heals the sick, etc. And when someone I know goes through a devastating loss, I daven for them and their families that they should be able to say these words, and still feel Hashem's love.

This is just one type of crisis of faith. I'm going to hang laundry and address some others in a different post.

chani8

Sun, Feb 15 2015, 8:17 am

imasoftov wrote:

What would it mean to not believe in science?

Science has it's origins in philosophy. Scientific theories are created based on studying that which can be observed and replicated. Some sciences, like anthropology, are more theory than fact. Facts are facts, but one doesn't have to believe the explanations for those facts, nor even whether or not the way they test those facts are legitimate. Not everything scientific is fact. So I don't have to 'believe in science'. Plus there are also politics involved in the scientific community, as they don't all agree on each other's theories all of the time.

Wasn't there a whole thread here on, Does the sun revolve around the earth? How about, Is there any other possible explanation for why the earth tests so old? Could it be faulty test methods that don't take into account the mabul?

Anyway, this thread wasn't supposed to be science verses torah, but we start a thread on that if you like.

PinkFridge

Sun, Feb 15 2015, 8:26 am

So I see three categories in crises of faith (by no means is this comprehensive):
- Hester panim - how could G-d let this happen. IOW why [b]do[I] bad things happen to good people
- Disillusion with community or leadership
- Intellectual discussion - how to reconcile science and religion, etc.

So about the last two:
- Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Hatzlacha making a lateral move to a community where you can safely breathe and find leadership you can respect. Understand that we're living in an imperfect world, where, as I'm wont to say, there are some people who you could swear wake up in the morning and plot how they can make the maximum number of people cynical that day.
- Science: I guess I'm blessed not to be an intellectual. Had I ever heard Christopher Hitchens and was really disturbed, I can think of at least a half a dozen people in my own community I could go to and bounce things off of and probably feel reassured. I don't believe these people are koolaid drinkers who would finesse things or brush me off. My brain explodes easily Tongue Out

I think though, if I were to have such a crisis of faith, I'd probably do as amother 1:01 pm on p. 1. I'm sure there are other communities, and not necessarily faith-based ones, with good, decent people but having been born into this one, I think that's what I'd be doing for the best interest of my children. And, being me, I'd probably say a prayer like, "OK, I don't know if anyone's listening but if You are, You know that classic vort on 'bchol levavcha'? I'm open to possibilities. Please don't write me off."

marina

Sun, Feb 15 2015, 9:45 am

PinkFridge wrote:

it's not a matter of baby and bathwater. It's more that if this system allows for this 1) conduct and 2) horrible hashkafos, it can't be the truth.

If people who beat their wives, for example, are still considered frum, that means frumkeit is not an acceptable system. Just like if people who blow themselves up are still considered good fundamentalist Muslims, then fundamentalist Islam is not an acceptable system.

And there are many hashkafic and even halachic statements that are totally unacceptable. Attitudes towards gentiles, halachic perspectives on women, etc.

marina

Sun, Feb 15 2015, 9:49 am

chani8 wrote:

The above is just touchy-feely. Judaism is entirely halacha based, it's not a touchy feely religion of God loves me and I love God, although that certainly can be the backdrop. I always reject touchy -feely explanations if they are halachically incompatible because they don't reflect Judaism accurately.

Just as an example of the top of my head- people say that the reason a woman is niddah longer for a girl than a boy is that whole thing about how you are losing more life since the baby girl has more potential for creating life, blah, blah, blah. I totally reject that because halachically niddah is based on only thing- uterine blood. If you give birth and you don't bleed vaginally (or before you bleed vaginally), you are simply not niddah, regardless of whether it's a boy or girl baby.

dancingqueen

Sun, Feb 15 2015, 10:31 am

chani8 wrote:

Firstly, there is a difference between social sciences and hard sciences. Secondly, a lot of Halacha has its basis in the science of its time (Gemara frequently refers to ancient Greek ideas).

chani8

Sun, Feb 15 2015, 10:32 am

marina wrote:

Hold on! Why are you keeping hilchos niddah??? Because a rabbi said so???

PinkFridge

Sun, Feb 15 2015, 10:40 am

marina wrote:

So maybe I should add a fourth category. Unless this falls under the science and whether one can believe at all.
The baby and bathwater reference is for those who do find meaning in Torah living but not in their communities.

Petra

Sun, Feb 15 2015, 10:55 am

I have met a few people who openly say they are atheist yet continue to daven and live within constraints of halacha by choice. They say it gives them a center and a framework. I don't understand how they can do this because if I were atheist I would not do this.

I often have my spells of doubts but during these times I am extremely unhappy both because I am in a spot where I'm doubting and because I become "unbalanced" and things appear pointless. Lately I have been less plagued by doubt and I am grateful. But, yes, I have lived a frum lifestyle yet not believed...

I believe there are inconsistencies in how the Bible is interpreted. I believe it is dangerous to be "ultra" religious for anyone, in any religion. I think it is true that the most harm done in this world is started by inflexible fanatics.

There are plenty of people who are hardly religious at all and are very moral and believe in contributing to society as a whole. They don't ascribe to a halachic way of life but I believe they earn their share in Olam Haba. That is just my belief. Thus, when I choose a halachic way of life (it should be halachic-ish way of life because nobody is 100% living halachically and not making mistakes) it is a choice for me to add a framework to my life. And my kids lives.

I don't believe G-d will smite me if I don't kiss a mezuzah or if I accidentally put a sefer away upside down. At this juncture in my life, I believe G-d really is only good and good things that happen are because G-d is allowed in. when a person does something good, G-d doesn't make them do it but the person is allowing his "G-dliness" to come through. Bad things happening aren't because of G-d but because of humans and because of the natural order of life. Ultimately, there will be good after that. In the meantime, we have choices how to conduct ourselves when bad things do happen. This is where I believe G-d is.

There is no such thing as absolute truth. These things can not be proven. Not to me anyway.

This is the most opinionated thing I've written in a public forum in a while. I post a disclaimer that this is only my opinion. I am not interested in hearing other's rebuke about it because I don't really care.

BlueRose52

Sun, Feb 15 2015, 5:36 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Nice breakdown, but I'd like to add that intellectual issues covers a lot more than just reconciling science with torah (although there's a lot within that category). It also covers issues about how could the torah advocate things that seem immoral to a person (genocide, slavery, views against homosexuals, second-class attitudes towards women, etc.) Another area of intellectual difficulty has to do with reconciling the torah's miraculous accounts with reality. The idea of fitting all the worlds animals into a boat, of people living hundreds of years old, of giants roaming the earth, of towers built to the sky by bronze age cultures, etc. is just a bit much for some people to swallow. Also, reconciling the torah's account of history with the documented historical record is a significant challenge for people who know about that. There are many intellectual challenges to certain torah viewpoints which are not directly related to the challenges posed by science.

Don't bother giving any answers to these issues, I'm not interested in getting into it here, I'm just explaining that these issues are also areas of intellectual tension, but which have nothing to do with science.