Consideration with Purim Costumes and MM

skirtznsox

Thu, Feb 19 2015, 3:49 pm

Fox wrote:

I'd like to believe that few people are completely tone-deaf regarding this issue, though I never fail to be surprised. I personally wouldn't do a Native American costume simply because it might make me look insensitive, despite the fact that there are many Native Americans who have more nuanced opinions than the writer of this op-ed.

However, I think the arguments tend to arise because it seems like such a slippery slope. The authors of the originally-quoted piece make no distinction between blackface (associated with legitimately offensive stereotypes); Mexicans (a national group -- *not* a racial group); geishas (a profession); and "thugs" (whatever that means). That's shocking to me, and frankly, it makes them seem incredibly ignorant.

Sometimes, it seems that sensitivity only breeds more ignorance, not less.

The piece is intentionally not nuanced, I was really involved last year after it was put out and made a similar complaint myself. The response was that you and I, people who get that nuance, aren't the people this is targeting. People who know a geisha as a profession and would dress up as one same as they might dress up as a plumber aren't the issue, it's the people who dress up as geisha and don't know more than the stereotype and wouldn't be able to answer to that. It's the people who dress up as "Mexican" in a sombrero, rather than "traditional historical Mexican-wear" in a sombrero. So the point is that anything that perpetuates stereotypes rather than recognizes the nuances is an issue; the examples are things of that nature, not things that are racist. When used as costumes, these things all tend to perpetuate stereotypes. If your costume isn't doing that, then don't worry. Another response I got was that things like this were put in because people whose ethnicities/identities get appropriated ASKED for these examples to be put in. Central/Mexican-Americans ASKED. A Japanese Jew ASKED. etc.

skirtznsox

Thu, Feb 19 2015, 4:41 pm

Also, Fox, it's great that YOU see the nuance about these things be a profession, or a nation, etc. But are most people who see the costumes going to get that you're a mariachi player and not a mexican? are you going to explain that you want to respect the culture and it's not just a mexican theme but specifically the instrument/musician you're dressing up as? to literally every person who sees you, not just states their thoughts incorrectly? The leaders in SJS ARE the people they're talking about. They've spoken to a number of people, both Jewish and not, who belong to the cultures that get appropriated and misused and stereotyped, and have said that even well-intended an knowledgeable costumes cause issues the rest of the year because people still don't get educated just because you've traveled and like the currently-worn attire. Geishas have a history that's not tzniut. They also cause Japanese women to get fetishized, even if the costume itself is tzniut. It's not "just a profession" in the same way as dressing up as a plumber is "just a profession" when it comes to costumes. If you think it is, you're being intellectually dishonest. There are a number of people who find the costumization, cheap-o store-bought or well-traveled and thought-through, offensive. Unless you're at your own house at your own party and everyone attending knows the direct connection that you have with the culture, it's risky. Right now, wearing the costumes doesn't help perpetuate the nuance. Discussing it with your friends, children, and children's friends help. When the greater Jewish community recognizes that these costumes affect the lives that actual people live on a daily basis, maybe they can be worn.

And Raisin, that depends. Were you dressing up as "Indian" or were you wearing a sari given to you by a dear friend?

The biggest point is not whether or not we personally find a thing offensive. There are tons of things I don't think are offensive, but it's not necessarily my place to say, even if I'm a member of the group. If enough people DO find it offensive, or find that it has a negative impact on the perception of their humanity on this day and all others, then it's our job as a light to the nations to make Hashem be less "hidden" in this holiday. There are many options for costumes, including the traditional (albeit somewhat boring at some point) options of Mordechai and Esther. If the costume we're dressing up in has the potential to negatively influence another person's opinion of other human beings, or to dehumanize or caricaturize another human being, this should be something that as Torah observing, frum people, we should not WANT to do, nor be arguing for. The campaign's point isn't "don't be racist" or even "don't culturally appropriate." Those are side points. Its point is, think about what you're doing with the way that you carry yourself as a Jew, the way we should every day. Enjoy yourself, and make sure that if a person who holds the identity that you're dressed up as walks into your shul (especially if you don't legitimately share said identity), they would find it funny or respectful or not care, regardless of their level of sense of humor. Make sure that they wouldn't be embarrassed to know that that's who people think they are. Make it a kiddush Hashem.

Fox

Thu, Feb 19 2015, 4:50 pm

Barbara wrote:

How could "anyone" not understand that a geisha costume, for example, appropriates Japanese culture in a way that perpetuates harmful stereotypes. The Asian submissive, hypersexual stereotype inherent in such a costume is particularly damaging to Asian women.

Huh? I've never heard of "submissive, hypersexual" being associated with geisha. Manga, yes. Geisha, no.

"Geishas are not submissive and subservient, but in fact they are some of the most financially and emotionally successful and strongest women in Japan, and traditionally have been so."
—Iwasaki Mineko, Geisha, A Life

"The geisha system was founded, actually, to promote the independence and economic self-sufficiency of women. And that was its stated purpose, and it actually accomplished that quite admirably in Japanese society, where there were very few routes for women to achieve that sort of independence.
—Mineko Iwasaki in interview, Boston Phoenix

So, not content with finding it offensive for non-qualified geisha to dress up as geisha, you seem to find it detrimental to Asian women that geisha exist at all.

And what if someone dresses up in kimono and obi but announces that she's dressed as a traditional Japanese wife/mother. Is that also detrimental to Asian women?

FranticFrummie

Thu, Feb 19 2015, 5:08 pm

Fox wrote:

But what does a Geisha actually DO? She's a hostess, singer, dancer, entertainer, mistress of tea service, and artful conversationalist - all dedicated to the satisfaction of business men and the male gaze. Her worth is dependent on how well she can please a man.

It's no surprise that American GI's were constantly getting in trouble by mistaking a Geisha for a harlot, and some harlots would dress up as pseudo-Geishas to fulfill a client's fantasy (as most professional Geishas do not have zex with their clients, no matter how much money is offered to them.)

I think that aside from the whole "national costume" debate, the core issue is power and privilege. That is why blackface is horrific to us, but putting on a blonde sheitel and going as a Norwegian doesn't even raise an eyebrow. You have to unpack the historic baggage when you make a decision about what culture you are going to appropriate.

And WHY does it mamash have to be someone else's culture? Is everyone's imagination so terribly limited?

Last year I pulled out one of my old Grateful Dead t-shirts and a tie dyed skirt, and went as I was 15 years ago, in my hippie phase. This year, I'm going to be as I was 25 years ago, and be a goth chick. Maybe the year after that I'll do 35 years in my past, and be a punk rocker! (I'll have to dig WAY in the back of my closet for that one, but I still have my leather jacket and Ramone's t-shirt.)

One year DD went as Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz, and I was Glenda the Good. (Yay for thrift store prom dresses and glitter. Very Happy

) Last year DD was a Power Ranger, with a black skirt over her costume. Come on people, use your heads! Banging head

Fox

Thu, Feb 19 2015, 5:44 pm

skirtznsox wrote:

The leaders in SJS ARE the people they're talking about. They've spoken to a number of people, both Jewish and not, who belong to the cultures that get appropriated and misused and stereotyped, and have said that even well-intended an knowledgeable costumes cause issues the rest of the year because people still don't get educated just because you've traveled and like the currently-worn attire.

That people representing marginalized groups are okay with equating blackface, geisha culture, Mexicans, and thugs is simply horrible.

Like I said, I'm sure their motives were good. The fact that some of them represent these groups doesn't give them a pass insulting geisha or Mexicans. The thugs can look out for themselves.

skirtznsox wrote:

Geishas have a history that's not tzniut.

Um, okay. But that's a completely different argument.

skirtznsox wrote:

They also cause Japanese women to get fetishized, even if the costume itself is tzniut. It's not "just a profession" in the same way as dressing up as a plumber is "just a profession" when it comes to costumes.

Yes, actually, it *is* just a profession. Were there periods of time (usually during foreign occupations) when there were unsavory activities associated with it? You bet! Just the same as a female "innkeeper" in the West during many eras. But do you consider it offensive for waitresses and others in the hospitality industry to wear uniforms of their trade?

If anything, geishas are more exemplary, since they represent a high degree of education, training, and actively preserve Japanese traditional and history.

skirtznsox wrote:

Unless you're at your own house at your own party and everyone attending knows the direct connection that you have with the culture, it's risky.

*This* gets to the heart of the matter, and this is why I consider it a slippery slope. You're basically saying that even the people who *own* a culture aren't allowed to appropriate it. So it may be okay for a geisha to wear traditional geisha dress in Kyoto, but not if she travels to a business district in Tokyo, because someone might be offended by her anachronistic dress?

If I understand what you're saying, you are arguing that most people are not going to put the thought, research, and work into Purim costumes that would render them respectful and that even so, their efforts might be misinterpreted by others.

Okay, I get that, and I'm certainly not endorsing anyone's wearing a potentially controversial costume.

I'm simply pointing out that when *I* think of a geisha costume, for example, I think of a long history going back to the 1300s and how cool it is that these women are living and working as preservers of their heritage. People who immediately associate less savory parts of geisha history with the traditional dress are saying more about their own ignorance and cultural myopia than about the objective offensiveness of the costume.

skirtznsox

Thu, Feb 19 2015, 6:08 pm

Fox wrote:

I'm simply pointing out that when *I* think of a geisha costume, for example, I think of a long history going back to the 1300s and how cool it is that these women are living and working as preservers of their heritage. People who immediately associate less savory parts of geisha history with the traditional dress are saying more about their own ignorance and cultural myopia than about the objective offensiveness of the costume.

Complete agreement. How many of those people are there? Are they the overwhelming majority? Even if you're not one of them and you put that thought into your costume, how many people will be educated on that by seeing you wear it, or are you just going to be unintentionally reinforcing a negative stereotype? I think we mostly agree.

There was another thing you said in the beginning of your post that I wanted to address, but this wouldn't quote anything other than what you wrote after you finished quoting me. SJS' board isn't conflating or equating those identities with each other. SJS is saying that people wearing costumes that evoke ANY of those images causes the same PROBLEM; namely, the dehumanization or caricaturing of other humans by either the costume wearers or many of their viewers. I'm directly informing you of this because we're having this conversation. However, I agree with your sentiment and that the way you're reading it is an understandable read, and that how its written can therefore be its own problem. I think there's a contact us option, I'd suggest using it and making that comment, it's really a valuable one. Maybe they'll change it before putting the campaign out there this year. Any improvement that solves the end problem makes Purim a much better chag and us that much closer to being a light unto the nations again, and the bringing of Moshiach!

Raisin

Thu, Feb 19 2015, 6:28 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

) Last year DD was a Power Ranger, with a black skirt over her costume. Come on people, use your heads! Banging head

Can you really not understand that a kid from Boro Park or Williamsburg or even many Crown heights families might have no idea who Glenda or Dorothy or a power ranger is? Or what a goth is? They are definitely more limited costume wise.

Also, national/ethnic costumes are often the more tznius options out there, as well as easy to wear. And often available for sale, for uncreative people who can't sew or design their own costumes.

I'm still baffled which cultures are ok, and which are not. I get the native american and black thing. But also, Japanese apparently not. What about european cultures? Why them and not Japan? I'm pretty sure the Irish suffered more racism in the past then the Japanese. Yet I doubt any Irish person would object to you dressing up as an Irish tap dancer, or chief, or whatever the national dress is.

Just trying to understand here.

Oh, and I wore the sari on Purim. I'm not sure what your question is and what difference it makes.

In any case, I think people are going to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Its so unclear what is ok and what is not, kids will dress up as JFK but not Martin Luther King. Queen Elizabeth 1 but not Pocohontas. etc etc. Which is a shame. Because, in any case, how in the world can someone differentiate between Pocohontas and any native american woman?

Barbara

Thu, Feb 19 2015, 6:59 pm

Raisin wrote:

So, you want to dress your daughter authentically as Pocahontas. OK. So, when she first went to Jamestown, she would have been nekkid. Will your child go to the megilla reading in her birthday suit? You want her a bit older, so she'd have, well, clothes? She would have had tattoos, and wear a knee length fringed skirt. No shirt necessary. But since its winter, she'd have a cloak or mantle made out of turkey feathers.

Looking forward to the photos.

skirtznsox

Thu, Feb 19 2015, 7:24 pm

Raisin wrote:

Just trying to understand here.

Oh, and I wore the sari on Purim. I'm not sure what your question is and what difference it makes.

In any case, I think people are going to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Its so unclear what is ok and what is not, kids will dress up as JFK but not Martin Luther King. Queen Elizabeth 1 but not Pocohontas. etc etc. Which is a shame. Because, in any case, how in the world can someone differentiate between Pocohontas and any native american woman?

I'm going to try to explain. If you have further questions, feel free to PM me. I'm now stepping outside of the campaign, but professionally, some of what I do is working with conversations around race and racial diversity, and inter-religious dialogue, so hopefully I can help. I'm not saying any of what I'm saying from a purely intellectualized, rhetorical place. It's a common-sense-that's-not-so-common (until you have these conversations regularly with an open mind, with all sides and opinions) place, that Hashem has blessed me to be able to be a part of many many times in my life before. On Purim with the sari, you were not trying to go as an Indian and say that just wearing a sari made it authentic. On Purim, you were being you but wearing something you might normally not, as an appreciation and an opportunity to wear something beautiful, that someone of the culture had specifically given you for that purpose. A beautiful outfit, rather than a caricature. That's what is different.

It would stink for people to throw the baby out with the bathwater. However, that's preferable to how things are now. So that hopefully you won't have to be one of those people, and you can help further this as a kiddush Hashem during Purim and beyond, I'll try to explain. Dressing up as a specific historical figure, as they actually were, as an individual person, after informing yourself about the actual person, not just the boiled down version (without using blackface just because it really has its own history), is a respectful and honoring costume. Dressing up as a caricature of a specific historical figure is not.

The everyday person may not be able to differentiate between Pocohontas and any native american woman. That's part of how this is dangerous. But if you've done your research, as has been mentioned in other people's posts, she's pretty special in her personal attire. Also, you would say you were dressed as Pocohantas, not as a Native American woman. Even if you went generic (which I wouldn't suggest until you really, really get what this is about, and even then probably not, and I wouldn't do it personally because it could still be hurtful to people's lives and also their emotions), you'd then say "I'm going as a traditional 1800s Cherokee woman" or whatever it is, rather than as a Native American, because most Native Americans today wear what most Americans wear today.

If someone who is of the culture you are dressing up as, assuming it's not your culture as well, who happens to also be Jewish, walked into your shul to hear the megillah, would they recognize how you're dressed as an accurate and respectful depiction of their current (or historical, if that's what you're intending and you know you're intending that) cultural practices and ways of life? Or could they be sitting there uncomfortably the whole time? If someone not Jewish but of the culture saw what you/your child was wearing, would they think that it was beautiful and respectful, or just for fun with no effort taken to actually get to know the real people behind the culture? Would it appear that you have relationships with actual people of the culture and have some involvement with it outside of tv/movies/books/media/the internet? If they walked up to you and, despite all of the effort you made in being respectful, said that they were offended, would you listen with an open heart and ask them, non-defensively, what was offensive about it and how you could do better next time?

Respectful, kiddush Hashem cultural costumes take a lot of research, and if part of your reason why they should be just allowed to be common is because they're easy to throw on and not have to change too much, then the fact that they're thrown on with ease and no care for the actual people involved is why they are a problem so it's purpose defeating.

sorry if it's tl;dr but hopefully anybody who actually wants to learn got something out of it. And any of you with real questions that you'd rather not post here can either pm me for overall conversation about it or contact the SJS itself if you have questions about the campaign.

marina

Thu, Feb 19 2015, 8:28 pm

I guess I also don't understand the marginalized rule. Is that it? If your group was marginalized, we can't wear your costume, but if not, we can?

So the French were not generally marginalized, so am I ok if I dress up in my French Maid outfit? Speaking of maids, cleaning ladies are not a protected group, so we can dress up like cleaning ladies? That doesn't feel right.

And seriously- what about witches? Those perceived as witches were literally burned at the stake, and you can be sure that Wiccans today are a maligned minority. But were they technically historically marginalized? Does anyone care about Wiccans and their feelings on this? Will they be upset if we dress up not as regular ugly witches, but as Harry Potter wizards and witches? I am not kidding, just raising some things I was thinking about.

Or is the rule that you just don't do what many people might find hurtful?

And then it's still complicated. I have a friend, uh, acquaintance, who is a cex worker. Not a hooker, but a proud cex worker who loves her job and talks about all she does to help the handicapped, etc. So can I dress up as a hooker? Some people will find it very offensive (outside of tznius reasons) because harlots are marginalized, but she will be offended that anyone is offended in the first place...

Last edited by marina on Thu, Feb 19 2015, 8:33 pm; edited 1 time in total