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-> Yom Tov / Holidays
-> Purim
blueberries
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 Sun, Mar 01 2015, 7:31 pm
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I thought a jewish women is not allowed to be with a non jewish man. Did Esther share her bed with Achashverosh?
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zaq
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Sun, Mar 01 2015, 7:35 pm
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More like he shared his bed with her. She did not sin, because she was forced into this situation against her will.
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singleagain
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Sun, Mar 01 2015, 7:40 pm
| zaq wrote: | | More like he shared his bed with her. She did not sin, because she was forced into this situation against her will. |
except when she went to him, without being called at the behest of mordechai, which was one reason she was so reluctant to go, bc she knew that going, included being together, and if she initiated it, that is not against her will
at least according to one interpretation I learned.
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amother
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Sun, Mar 01 2015, 7:47 pm
| singleagain wrote: | except when she went to him, without being called at the behest of mordechai, which was one reason she was so reluctant to go, bc she knew that going, included being together, and if she initiated it, that is not against her will
at least according to one interpretation I learned. |
I heard because she went on her own she was forced to really divorce mordchi and he said what will be lost will be lost he was referring to their life they were allowed to stay together because it was against Esther's will but once she went on her own they had to be seperate. But they both sacrificed to save klal yisroel
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naturalmom5
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Sun, Mar 01 2015, 7:49 pm
| blueberries wrote: | | I thought a jewish women is not allowed to be with a non jewish man. Did Esther share her bed with Achashverosh? |
See tosfos ketovot 8b who grapples with this
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amother
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Sun, Mar 01 2015, 7:51 pm
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she had 2 sons with him and stayed married to him even after the Jews were saved. So I'm pretty certain that yes they shared a bed.
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spring13
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Sun, Mar 01 2015, 11:58 pm
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Let's be adults and think past Vashti's tail and all that and try to deal with pshat and reality. Of course she did. If you consider the megilla to be an historical account on any level, you have to accept that this happened. Of course it wasn't anyone's ideal situation, she didn't do it for fun or personal pleasure, and it shouldn't be taken as encouragement for the average Jewish girl to go and sleep around or intermarry or whatever.
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sequoia
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Mon, Mar 02 2015, 12:15 am
Well yes, because they were married.
Yael and Yudit don't bother you?
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chani8
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Mon, Mar 02 2015, 1:13 am
I have no problem with the Esther story, with the fact that she was married to Mordechai and then forced into marriage with Achashverosh.
I have a problem with the claim that Mordechai raised her like his own daughter. Because, then he married her. How is that not gross and disgusting?! And really, why state that at all? Surely a grown man would've been busy with man stuff, and more likely, he hired a woman to nurse and raise Esther. Instead there is midrash of him growing man boobs and nursing her, even. Really? Is that necessary to say that??
Also, I didn't see this for myself, but I recall someone telling me that there is a gemorah that states that Esther was so beautiful that men would 'get off' in their pants just by merely looking at her. Why would they say such a crude thing about a heroine? Why comment on her beauty in such a demeaning manner??
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singleagain
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Mon, Mar 02 2015, 1:18 am
I always thought that the raising her like a daughter was one explanation, and the being married was another explanation... two different things.
never heard of the man boobs, and I have no experience, but I'm sure many mother's would love if their mans would have that ability 
and to the last... I never never heard of anything like that... *blinkblink*
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Heyaaa
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Mon, Mar 02 2015, 1:19 am
| chani8 wrote: | I have no problem with the Esther story, with the fact that she was married to Mordechai and then forced into marriage with Achashverosh.
I have a problem with the claim that Mordechai raised her like his own daughter. Because, then he married her. How is that not gross and disgusting?! And really, why state that at all? Surely a grown man would've been busy with man stuff, and more likely, he hired a woman to nurse and raise Esther. Instead there is midrash of him growing man boobs and nursing her, even. Really? Is that necessary to say that??
Also, I didn't see this for myself, but I recall someone telling me that there is a gemorah that states that Esther was so beautiful that men would 'get off' in their pants just by merely looking at her. Why would they say such a crude thing about a heroine? Why comment on her beauty in such a demeaning manner?? |
The way you view nursing probably has a lot more to do with out times and the sexualization of it through the media but I doubt they viewed it that way in biblical times.
Also I Iearned that she wasn't pretty. Either way, I've learned through experience 99% of the time, if I didn't see it myself, it doesn't say what they claim it says.
Last edited by Heyaaa on Mon, Mar 02 2015, 1:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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singleagain
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Mon, Mar 02 2015, 1:20 am
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I do remember an explanation that she wasn't pretty, which added to the miracle of the fact that out of all the other girls she was chosen.
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chani8
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Mon, Mar 02 2015, 2:08 am
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Can someone explain why we learn it that way, that Mordechai adopted Esther, then later married her. Why state that at all? It's bad enough that he married his own niece, but that he raised her as his daughter . . . Are we glorifying incest here?? I just don't understand.
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frayda
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Mon, Mar 02 2015, 2:18 am
| chani8 wrote: | | Can someone explain why we learn it that way, that Mordechai adopted Esther, then later married her. Why state that at all? It's bad enough that he married his own niece, but that he raised her as his daughter . . . Are we glorifying incest here?? I just don't understand. |
Actually, according to the megilla Mordechai and Esther were cousins.
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singleagain
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Mon, Mar 02 2015, 2:18 am
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like I said before, I'm pretty sure that it's two different explanations. one is he adopted her and was like a father, and a second is that he married her.... as far as I know, I've never heard that they co-exist...
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chani8
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Mon, Mar 02 2015, 3:09 am
| singleagain wrote: | | like I said before, I'm pretty sure that it's two different explanations. one is he adopted her and was like a father, and a second is that he married her.... as far as I know, I've never heard that they co-exist... |
I hear you, but I don't get it. These are not hypothetical theoretical philosophical explanations, are they? Mordechai was related to Esther, or not. He adopted her, or not. He married her, or not.
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m in Israel
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Mon, Mar 02 2015, 3:18 am
As previous posters have said, she was his wife and they had children. Their son Daryavesh (likely Darius II) was the ruler after Achashveirosh, and he was the one who allowed the completion of the building of the second Bais Hamikdosh.
There is a lot of discussion about this, and as previous posters have said, the most common understanding is that since she was forced (raped, for all practical purposes) she is not held responsible. (The medrash says she tried hiding from the king's messengers who were collecting all the "eligible" maidens for the harem but they found her). It is not just an issue of intermarriage -- according to many opinions she was married to Mordechai and not divorced, and therefore she was an eishes ish -- a much more serious problem.
And as single again said, there are those who say that when she finally agreed to Mordechai's request to approach Achashveirosh and says "im, avaditi, avaditi" she is talking about Olam Habah -- that by approaching him she would be sinning because it was no longer a forced situation but her going willingly, and she was therefore saying -- even if this is a sin that causes me to loose my Olah Habah, I will do it for the sake of saving Klal Yisroel.
I always thought of Esther as a really tragic heroine. She had to spend the rest of her life stuck with Achashveirosh for the sake of the yeshua of Klal Yisroel.
And Chani, it doesn't address your main question, but it says straight out in the megilla that they were cousins -- Esther's FATHER was Mordechai's uncle. Likely the common misconception that they were an uncle/niece comes from the concept that he raised her, so you kind of assume in your mind that they were different generations.
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chani8
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Mon, Mar 02 2015, 3:25 am
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So M in Israel, maybe the concept that 'he raised her' is more of a theoretical thing? But what about the man boobs?? Why get that graphic if it's theoretical?
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Heyaaa
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Mon, Mar 02 2015, 3:59 am
| chani8 wrote: | | So M in Israel, maybe the concept that 'he raised her' is more of a theoretical thing? But what about the man boobs?? Why get that graphic if it's theoretical? |
Did you see that inside?
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m in Israel
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Mon, Mar 02 2015, 4:12 am
| chani8 wrote: | | So M in Israel, maybe the concept that 'he raised her' is more of a theoretical thing? But what about the man boobs?? Why get that graphic if it's theoretical? |
I just checked out the source for Mordechai nursing her -- it is in Beraishis Rabbah (the medrash), which says that for some reason Mordechai was unable to find a wet nurse for her (Esther's father died during the pregnancy and her mother died in childbirth, according to the medrash), so Hashem made a neis and he was able to nurse her himself. However this is certainly not the only opinion, and in fact the medrash on Tehilim Perek 22 says that Mordechai was married and his wife nursed Esther! (Again, I don't know how that fits with the opinions that hold that Mordechai eventually married her -- maybe his wife died and he married her later -- that actually feels a lot less strange than the typical idea. If his wife basically raised her and eventually died when she was older it would not be so awkward to think of him then marrying an adult Esther. . Or maybe these are just conflicting opinions).
The idea that they married each other comes from the Pasuk that says " and he took her as a "bas" " which Rashi among others explains to mean "Bayis" -- a reference to her being his wife.
I don't have too much time to research this now, but there is definitely a lot to figure out here. As with most things medrash, the simple explanations we were taught as kids really need a lot of understanding  . . .if I have time later maybe I'll try to check out some of the original sources (or maybe someone else here will!)
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