Was Esther together with Achashverosh?

Raisin

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 4:17 am

chani8 wrote:

So M in Israel, maybe the concept that 'he raised her' is more of a theoretical thing? But what about the man boobs?? Why get that graphic if it's theoretical?

its not unheard of for men to nurse babies. And possibly it saved the babies life, in the days before formula.

I think you are looking at this with modern eyes. In those days I am sure it was all too common that orphans were bought up by relatives, and I am sure sometimes marriages occurred. I agree it is odd if mordechai both nursed her and married her.

Do you think it is incest if 2 children bought up in the same household marry, assuming they are not related? Like in this story? http://tabletmag.com/podcasts/.....ory-2

imasoftov

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 7:36 am

What I've never gotten is why Mordechai, instead of telling Esther to keep quiet, didn't try to use protektzia (even if he wasn't an important person himself yet, there must have been some proto-askon around) to get her out of the competition. It seems to me that this is what anyone would do for any woman who was taken, let alone one's wife (according to the midrash).

watergirl

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 7:47 am

imasoftov wrote:

Because Mordechai understood that Esther needed to be in the palace in order to save the Jews.

m in Israel

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 8:00 am

imasoftov wrote:

It seems clear that he did try to keep her out of the competition -- the medrash says he hid her and they found her and took her by force. I'm not sure how far an askan could have gotten with a hedonistic absolute monarch like Achashveirosh.

There is a medrash that says that the reason Mordechai told her not to tell about her background is so that Achashveirosh would think there was something disgraceful that she was hiding and therefore be uninterested in her. And that if he would know the truth, that she was a descendant of Shaul Hamelech, that might attract Achashveirosh who had a desire to legitimize his rule by marrying royalty (hence his marriage to Vashti, the daughter of Balshazzer/ granddaughter of Nevuchadnezzer). So the "keeping quiet" initially was in fact part of the plan to prevent Achashveirosh's interest in her.

amother

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 8:01 am

To the posters who think its bad enough for someone to marry his own niece its not bad at all. Its actually praiseworthy

And there are opinions that mordechai and esther were first cousins not uncle and niece.
Either way they did no wrong.

Ruchel

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 8:02 am

Depending on the rav you ask and the source you read? It ranges from yes, to a malach or golem replaced her including to expect Koresh. Hmmmm. Oh I like that idea, where can I find my own replacement? LOL.

DrMom

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 8:03 am

watergirl wrote:

Because Mordechai understood that Esther needed to be in the palace in order to save the Jews.

In hindsight we know that this turned out to be true, but it doesn't seem that Mordechai could know this at the time.

I agree with imasoftov.

imasoftov

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 8:16 am

m in Israel wrote:

I don't know about you, but if someone kidnapped a girl today, I'd try harder than that.

groovy1224

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 8:17 am

chani8 wrote:

So M in Israel, maybe the concept that 'he raised her' is more of a theoretical thing? But what about the man boobs?? Why get that graphic if it's theoretical?

Can you stop saying mordechai's name and 'man boobs' in the same sentence? He is a figure from tanach, not to mention a legendary tzadik, and saved the Jewish people, so maybe that earns him a bit more respect?

imasoftov

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 8:22 am

A purim proof that Esther and the king did sleep together. Esther is Mordechai’s bat dodo. In Cajun, a dance party is called a fais do-do, and do-do is connected to the French word dormir, meaning to sleep (I've heard two reasons connecting the dance party to going to sleep, either they would bring the little children to the party and set aside a room for them to sleep, or the mothers would put their children to bed before going to the party). QED

gp2.0

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 8:25 am

imasoftov wrote:

I don't know about you, but if someone kidnapped a girl today, I'd try harder than that.

Oh c'mon, it wasn't just someone, it was the monarch! If the leader of a totalitarian country decided to kidnap one of his own citizens, what are the other citizens gonna do about that? In today's day? Absolutely nothing! Their hands are tied.

chani8

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 8:29 am

groovy1224 wrote:

Huh? Esther saved the Jews, for one. And two, I am as horrified as you that our Chachamim say that Mordechai actually nursed Esther. The image that conjures is just gross. And three, I don't think I'm being disrespectful to Mordechai. I am questioning the Chachamim who said all that.

gp2.0

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 8:30 am

imasoftov wrote:

Anyway, hindsight is always twenty-twenty.

-Why didn't Esther run away, skip town, either before she was rounded up or at any point thereafter
-Why didn't she pull a Juliet, take some obscure poison, pretend to die, thus be released to the Jews for burial and hide again until it was all over
-Why didn't Mordechai (or any other Jewish guy) just kill Haman quietly and anonymously in a side street somewhere, problem solved

Etc.

singleagain

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 8:30 am

gp2.0 wrote:

when I learned the megillah in college, (few years back so I don't remember the details) our professor gave out an article of a woman who went to a modern day government for something, she was called back the next day, she thought it had to do with the reason she'd been to the govt, they took her in a room, did up her hair and make up, and I believe left her in a room without clothes, the nude ruler came in, was with her and left. ---- it still happens in today's world

(edited to add quote of what I was replying to, since several of us were posting at once)

Last edited by singleagain on Mon, Mar 02 2015, 8:35 am; edited 1 time in total

etky

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 8:31 am

The Greek additions to Esther, that were not canonized in the Masoretic text but which were included in the Septuagint and apparently influenced the Midrash as well, preface the story of the Megilla with an apocalyptic dream that Mordechai had which caused him consternation regarding the fate of the Jewish people in Persia and which he "solves" at the end of the Megilla. Taking this into account, it is conceivable that when Esther was taken to the palace, Mordechai already had a notion that a Divine plan was unfolding to deliver the Jews from some future trouble. Thus possibly his admonition to Esther to keep quiet about her extraction and also his lack of action in securing her release.

imasoftov

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 8:31 am

gp2.0 wrote:

And how many other already-married women wound up in his harem?

singleagain

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 8:34 am

imasoftov wrote:

And how many other already-married women wound up in his harem?

agreed... I recall learning that first he picked unmarried girls, before he started going after married ones, plus once you were with the king, you were kept locked up in case he wanted you again, and couldn't ever go back home

imasoftov

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 8:39 am

singleagain wrote:

You are not agreeing with me - you are arguing with me, unless you have a source for that other than your memory.

singleagain

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 8:47 am

imasoftov wrote:

You are not agreeing with me - you are arguing with me, unless you have a source for that other than your memory.

I'm not arguing with you, I'm saying, yes, I remember learning that
1) achashveyrosh took married women, but
2) he ALSO [before] took unmarried girls, and
3) once you were with the king, you stayed in his harem forever....

how is that arguing with you?