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-> Yom Tov / Holidays
-> Purim
Hashem_Yaazor
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 Wed, Mar 04 2015, 1:55 pm
| marina wrote: | | I don't understand why everyone has this weird need to deny Esther a normal s-xual relationship with Achashverosh. She chose, for whatever reason, to marry him. She could have enjoyed it. It doesn't mean she was a bad Jew. So much of the analysis here is so simplistic. |
Except our meforshim (torah shebe'al peh which is integral to understanding Tanach) tell us otherwise.
Sanhedrin 74b; Rama 157/1 [“However if they force a woman…There is no Giluiy Arayos by a gentile to a Jewish woman”]; Shach Yoreh Deah 157/9-- she made herself karka olam
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Hashem_Yaazor
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Wed, Mar 04 2015, 1:58 pm
| marina wrote: | | First of all, why not take this literally? If Noach stuffed all the animals on to the teiva for a world wide flood and the Egyptian's water turned to blood and the yam suf split and the Jews heard lightening and saw thunder - why not believe this? If you can believe that the entire nation of Egypt was overrun with frogs ( how about that medrash about the giant frog and the mini ones popping out of it like little gremlins?), why can't you believe a story about a giant frog the size of a castle? | (Noach didn't take all the animals, only some from each species, and likely there were fewer species back then...no okapis  )
But the giant frog eaten by a raven? Who could then sit on a tree? And not to punish by doing something out of the realm of normal physical nature so Hashem could show His presence?)
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octopus
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Wed, Mar 04 2015, 1:59 pm
| marina wrote: | | First of all, why not take this literally? If Noach stuffed all the animals on to the teiva for a world wide flood and the Egyptian's water turned to blood and the yam suf split and the Jews heard lightening and saw thunder - why not believe this? If you can believe that the entire nation of Egypt was overrun with frogs ( how about that medrash about the giant frog and the mini ones popping out of it like little gremlins?), why can't you believe a story about a giant frog the size of a castle? |
Some of this stuff that you are saying are p'shat in the pasuk. Not midrashim. There are different kinds of midrashim as well. And they are not all on the same level either- some are medrash pliah - look I'm ignorant on the topic too, so maybe some knowledgeable lady can help me out. Aggadata is different kind of midrash. Even a simple story in a midrash can be understood on a kabbalistic level . A shoe, eye, yes even tail can be symbolic for a middah or whatever and you can darshan a whole lesson from it.
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Hashem_Yaazor
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Wed, Mar 04 2015, 1:59 pm
| marina wrote: | | And second of all- this is not even aggadta, it's just one dude telling everyone what he saw. Aggadta is like Rivka was 3 years old, Avraham smashed all the idols, etc |
I wouldn't call a tana a "dude", and why isn't it agadata? If it's recorded in the gemara for posperity, there is a reason. Just like there is a reason to record that Avraham smashed the idols and Rivka was like a 3 year old when she got married.
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Hashem_Yaazor
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Wed, Mar 04 2015, 2:00 pm
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I am moche the kavod of Mordechai Hatzadik, for the record. We are not going to be buddies with him with a nickname. And no, he did not cause Esther to go. They tried hiding her until Achashverosh found out anyway.
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marina
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Wed, Mar 04 2015, 2:00 pm
| octopus wrote: | do you actually read the p'shat of the megillah? I'm not sure where you are getting this. Mordechai didn't force her to be taken by achashveirosh. she just was taken. Who said a single jewish girl would want to be taken by a big hairy king- and yes the medrash says achashveirosh was fat and hairy  |
I thought she had more of a choice. She could have just stayed home. Maybe I'm wrong, but I never read it as if she was davka forced to participate in this contest.
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marina
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Wed, Mar 04 2015, 2:01 pm
| Hashem_Yaazor wrote: | | I am moche the kavod of Mordechai Hatzadik, for the record. We are not going to be buddies with him with a nickname. And no, he did not cause Esther to go. They tried hiding her until Achashverosh found out anyway. |
Source? I hope it's not aggadta.
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Hashem_Yaazor
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Wed, Mar 04 2015, 2:01 pm
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(I'm liking your posts, octopus! )
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Hashem_Yaazor
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Wed, Mar 04 2015, 2:02 pm
| gp2.0 wrote: | | I am surprised that my DD is not more traumatized by the explicit details of haman's hanging...but I do notice an uptick around purim time of her saying "I'm going to kill you" when she's mad, instead of saying something like "I'm going to run away." Meaning, they definitely internalize the violence on some level...oh well, I guess better through the Purim story than through TV or something... |
I think all kids have this intrinsic need somehow, which is why I mentioned the mechanech I know who lets the boys get it out by relishing in the emphasis of the word killing when in chumash/navi....better that than never having an outlet, I guess!
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octopus
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Wed, Mar 04 2015, 2:03 pm
| marina wrote: | | Ok, so Mordechai forced her into the contest? He then caused her to be raped? Good job Mordy! |
huh? Where would you even get this idea from??!! She was TAKEN. Like solders went around scouring the country for beautiful maidens. They could've seen her in the market place and grabbed her!
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Hashem_Yaazor
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Wed, Mar 04 2015, 2:05 pm
| marina wrote: | | Source? I hope it's not aggadta. |
Perek Bais, Passuk Ches
ח וַיְהִי, בְּהִשָּׁמַע דְּבַר-הַמֶּלֶךְ וְדָתוֹ, וּבְהִקָּבֵץ נְעָרוֹת רַבּוֹת אֶל-שׁוּשַׁן הַבִּירָה, אֶל-יַד הֵגָי; וַתִּלָּקַח אֶסְתֵּר אֶל-בֵּית הַמֶּלֶךְ, אֶל-יַד הֵגַי שֹׁמֵר הַנָּשִׁים. 8 So it came to pass, when the king's commandment and his decree was published, and when many maidens were gathered together unto Shushan the castle, to the custody of Hegai, that Esther was taken into the king's house, to the custody of Hegai, keeper of the women.
Yes, we need meforshim (not agadata per se, but yes Torah She'beal Peh, that without we cannot understand Torah Shebiksav properly) to understand this to mean that after going through many maidens which took a while, that was while Esther was hidden, and they still didn't find someone fitting in the eyes of the king, then Esther was TAKEN (passive, she was not offered by Mordechai, and she didn't willingly offer herself either)
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marina
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Wed, Mar 04 2015, 2:13 pm
| Hashem_Yaazor wrote: | Perek Bais, Passuk Ches
ח וַיְהִי, בְּהִשָּׁמַע דְּבַר-הַמֶּלֶךְ וְדָתוֹ, וּבְהִקָּבֵץ נְעָרוֹת רַבּוֹת אֶל-שׁוּשַׁן הַבִּירָה, אֶל-יַד הֵגָי; וַתִּלָּקַח אֶסְתֵּר אֶל-בֵּית הַמֶּלֶךְ, אֶל-יַד הֵגַי שֹׁמֵר הַנָּשִׁים. 8 So it came to pass, when the king's commandment and his decree was published, and when many maidens were gathered together unto Shushan the castle, to the custody of Hegai, that Esther was taken into the king's house, to the custody of Hegai, keeper of the women.
Yes, we need meforshim (not agadata per se, but yes Torah She'beal Peh, that without we cannot understand Torah Shebiksav properly) to understand this to mean that after going through many maidens which took a while, that was while Esther was hidden, and they still didn't find someone fitting in the eyes of the king, then Esther was TAKEN (passive, she was not offered by Mordechai, and she didn't willingly offer herself either) |
how do you know she was hidden?
And you seem to be blending aggadta and torah she baal peh and just exaggerations all into one. Basically, your position is that if you don't believe it, it is aggadta and if you do, it's torah she baal peh.
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marina
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Wed, Mar 04 2015, 2:14 pm
Look, it was a huge honor to be chosen as the King's wife. I just can't imagine that she actively resisted and didn't want to participate in the contest, etc.
She could have made herself ugly, so many other things.
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octopus
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Wed, Mar 04 2015, 2:16 pm
omg this website will totally confuse you if you were not confused before. he mixes midrashim with chassidish mayselach (stories!) You know what litvishe ppl think of chassidishe mayselech....
that they are exaggeration.
Last edited by octopus on Wed, Mar 04 2015, 2:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Hashem_Yaazor
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Wed, Mar 04 2015, 2:17 pm
Do you honestly believe that you can learn Tanach without meforshim? If so, this is the wrong place for you, because that IS not Orthodox Judaism. That is called being a Karaite.
Not all TSB"P are medrashim. A lot of commentary and explanation are drash and yes, to be taken as the way of understanding.
If you don't want to go with the 'she was hidden' theory, fine. But the passuk explicitly states she was taken.
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Hashem_Yaazor
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Wed, Mar 04 2015, 2:38 pm
BTW, if you are curious as to what the frog the size of 60 houses story refers to, I decided to write up a summary of the explanation since it's extremely fitting for this time, being Taanis Esther, a day of tefillah, and a day after Netanyahu spoke up against the threat of Yishmael, and with ISIS waging war.
The frog refers to yavan (tzipor deiah) because they represented chochma. The 60 is because 6 represents the completion of teva, the ultimate in externality, which they excelled in. It's a multiple of 10 because of this excellence (it's ribui/multiplied). Their chochma was complete in all physical areas.
Came a long the tanin which represents Rome. A tanin is a nachash b'mayim (a snake in the water), where nachash refers to the yetzer hora (see the story of Adam and Chava) and water represents physical matter. They took the chochma of yavan, swallowed it up and extended its length (because a tanin is long and straight, so it remained the width of the frog). They used it to lead comfortable lives full of wealth. This is western civilization.
Came along the raven which represents Yishmael. It's female because the essence of tumah came from his mother (not considered zera avraham). A raven is symbolic of cruelty, especially on its own descendants, and specifically the type that one is willing to suffer as long as others can suffer along with him. (Can expound a bit more on this if desired.) While Yishmael seems to have a midda of mesiras nefesh (they rewrote the Koran to say it was akeidas Yishmael even!), this is really achzariyus, and they will kill themselves only because they know in the process others can be harmed as well. This actually stems from Hagar who threw away her dying child so SHE wouldn't have to see it happening (for her personal benefit); she didn't care for him. (mefurash b'torah: "Vatishlach oso tachas echad hasichim ki amrah al ereh b'mos...")
To see what a person is like, says the Rambam, you have to see what he says his Olam Haba will be. We all know what Yishmael thinks....
Since they are ma'aminim, paired with achzariyus, this combination is the absolute worst because of their righteous justification (see ISIS, if Hamas is not bad enough for you).
So the tanin which represents western civilization was epitomized in the World Trade Center. Yishmael (the raven) came and swallowed it up, by felling it through the middah of achzariyus (suicide hijacks). But what is stronger than this raven? The tree which could withstand its weight. Tefillah. When Hagar threw Yishmael under the bush, he davened, and it saved his life. Davening is where success lies. The problem is Yishmael is a ma'amin also and also davens, and therefore continues to hold a lot of power, in a destructive form. Our tefillos for the positive, constructive good should be all that much powerful, but that's all we have to rely on! Just like the Tana concludes "if I hadn't seen it, I would not have believed it", the whole world was in shock the powerful WTC could be crumbled to pieces in minutes. Everyone had this reaction "I don't believe it!" but through the repeated footage, we saw it and integrated the reality. The message we take out of this is that even what appears to be the absolute strongest can be felled through achzariyus, but tefillah is the strongest power of them all.
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amother
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Wed, Mar 04 2015, 2:40 pm
Rabbi Daniel Glatstein (Torahanytime.com) brings a meforesh (I forget who) that the tail symbolizes that Chava was taken from the rib of Adam in order that she should be tznuah, so it symbolizes that the malach implanted a feeling of tznius into Vashti, causing her to refuse to appear.
When Achasverosh asked the Jewish sages what to do about his disobedient wife, they said, "don't ask us, being in galus has caused us to lose our wisdom. Ask the Moabites, they've never suffered galus".
This was alluding to the fact that the Moabite women didn't go out to give water & bread to the Jews, because of tznius. And, when Bilaam and Balak wanted to entice the Jews into znus, the Moabite women refused, and they had to enlist the Midianite women.
So the Sages were implying, if Vashti refused because of tznius, kol hakavod to her!
(Rabbi Glatstein has many shiurim on Purim. A lot of fascinating material, such as that Vashti's gilgul was The Cow that Kept Shabbos, according, IIRC, to the Rama miPanu's Sefer Gilgulim! So she eventually got a real tail!)
(I'm anon because I just discovered these shiurim & have been raving about them IRL to one and all!)
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PinkFridge
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Wed, Mar 04 2015, 3:51 pm
| marina wrote: | | First of all, why not take this literally? If Noach stuffed all the animals on to the teiva for a world wide flood and the Egyptian's water turned to blood and the yam suf split and the Jews heard lightening and saw thunder - why not believe this? If you can believe that the entire nation of Egypt was overrun with frogs ( how about that medrash about the giant frog and the mini ones popping out of it like little gremlins?), why can't you believe a story about a giant frog the size of a castle? |
If it was in the Chumash I'd believe it.
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etky
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Wed, Mar 04 2015, 4:42 pm
| marina wrote: | Look, it was a huge honor to be chosen as the King's wife. I just can't imagine that she actively resisted and didn't want to participate in the contest, etc.
She could have made herself ugly, so many other things. |
The megilla uses the word ותלקח twice - first when she was taken to the palace and second when she was taken to the king for his appraisal. The grammatical form of the word denotes complete passivity and lack of initiative - certainly the opposite of enthusiasm or even mild interest. Of course, active resistance would have been futile anyway.
While Esther was in the preparatory 12 month phase before meeting the king, the megilla tells us that she asked for nothing - as opposed to the other women - to beautify herself. She did the minimum preparations that she was told she must do. This also attests her disinterest in snaring the king.
The truth is that from many perspectives it was a tragedy for any woman to end up in a kings harem.
It was not a life. The women were shielded from social contacts outside the palace and were cut off from family. They lived in isolation, in a world populated by the other concubines and eunichs who served and guarded them. They had access to the king only if he specifically requested their company. I suppose that for some women from impoverished backgrounds and no prospects in life it might have been a step up. But not for any woman who had hopes of marrying and raising a family. I don't know how many women were rounded up for this 'contest' but it was obvious that all but one "lucky one" would end up living out their days in the harem.
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