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Satmar protest against Israel/Netanyahu's speech
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Heyaaa




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 08 2015, 4:13 pm
amother wrote:
I was referring to prestate British Palestine. Let me look up exact names of the various armed organizations.

ETA:
Irgun
Lehi
Hagana
Palmach

I was not referring to the IDF.

Regarding Rav Kook, I heard from what I consider to be reliable sources that the rebbe himself never used yemach shemo on Jews, it was reserved for nonjews like Hitler. There was a different acronym that was used for the zionist farfeerers, mostly the irreligious ones, but I'm not sure what it stands for.

In any case, I think I made it very clear that I disagree with the idea of hating the politics means we must hate the man.


Hagana was a defense organization. Irgun split off from hagana because they wanted to be able to do more than defend. Lehi was a subgroup of Irgun. Palmach was another branch of hagana and for the most part they didn't instigate fighting but rather they would sabotage current threats.

So you're left with 2, not 4. And I still wouldn't call them terror groups. They weren't peaceful but if you want to label a terror group, it's Hamas, not people who gave 3 warnings before they would attack.
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amother


 

Post Sun, Mar 08 2015, 4:13 pm
amother wrote:
I believe that the rebbe was against jews establishing a state on their own if they needed to start a war to get it. However, from what I understand, the Jews were given the land of then Palestine, now Israel. The wars only happened afterwards when they were attacked by the arabs. Were Jewishthe Jewish people supposed to turn down such a huge gift especially after the holocaust? Maybe Hashem wanted us to have a land to call our own otherwise it wouldnt have been given to us. And once we had the land then we need to protect ourselves from harm as per Hashems commandments. How can Satmar deny/protest Hashems will?
http://www.simpletoremember.co.....bout/


A - It wasn't a unanimous gift, just ask the Arabs (just take my word for it please, don't step near to those murderers please)...

B - How much of it was from goodwill, how much of it was from guilt, harped upon by opportunists? (Talk about using the 6 million for political gain Crying, which is why the zionist view on the holocaust in Yad Vashem, and especially their sabotage of rescue during the holocaust pained the rebbe so much). Worse, how much of it was from being fed up of the bloodshed, and armed instigation? (I mentioned the Jewish fighters before the state was founded.)

Hashem wants us to have a home, but He wants to dwell among us. When His home is rebuilt when Moshiach comes. Until then, even in the Land that is rightfully ours, we are in golus still.

There's so much more to it. You can fill a bookshelf with his seforim. I don't claim to know them all.
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ally




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 08 2015, 4:18 pm
amother wrote:
A - It wasn't a unanimous gift, just ask the Arabs (just take my word for it please, don't step near to those murderers please)...

B - How much of it was from goodwill, how much of it was from guilt, harped upon by opportunists? (Talk about using the 6 million for political gain Crying, which is why the zionist view on the holocaust in Yad Vashem, and especially their sabotage of rescue during the holocaust pained the rebbe so much). Worse, how much of it was from being fed up of the bloodshed, and armed instigation? (I mentioned the Jewish fighters before the state was founded.)

Hashem wants us to have a home, but He wants to dwell among us. When His home is rebuilt when Moshiach comes. Until then, even in the Land that is rightfully ours, we are in golus still.

There's so much more to it. You can fill a bookshelf with his seforim. I don't claim to know them all.


You mean the Rebbe who told his adherents not to run, and ran?
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amother


 

Post Sun, Mar 08 2015, 4:20 pm
Heyaaa wrote:
Hagana was a defense organization. Irgun split off from hagana because they wanted to be able to do more than defend. Lehi was a subgroup of Irgun. Palmach was another branch of hagana and for the most part they didn't instigate fighting but rather they would sabotage current threats.

So you're left with 2, not 4. And I still wouldn't call them terror groups. They weren't peaceful but if you want to label a terror group, it's Hamas, not people who gave 3 warnings before they would attack.


I just googled it for the names because I didn't want to make a mistake*, I just copy pasted. I wasn't counting numbers. And I'm not really comparing their terror vs ours, which is better or worse, I'm just saying that using killing as a method of achieving your aims is different than using politics like in KJ.

(*Do you guys realize what pressure I'm under not to say a single word that will be misread by SOMEONE on here? Give a girl a break and don't jump on my word choice unless you're sure you read it right and you really want to clarify or disagree, not attack. Like whoever didn't notice I wrote prestate British Palestine ...)
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 08 2015, 4:20 pm
Maya, you mentioned once that you read a book about this situation. What was it called?
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amother


 

Post Sun, Mar 08 2015, 4:29 pm
amother wrote:
A - It wasn't a unanimous gift, just ask the Arabs (just take my word for it please, don't step near to those murderers please)...

B - How much of it was from goodwill, how much of it was from guilt, harped upon by opportunists? (Talk about using the 6 million for political gain Crying, which is why the zionist view on the holocaust in Yad Vashem, and especially their sabotage of rescue during the holocaust pained the rebbe so much). Worse, how much of it was from being fed up of the bloodshed, and armed instigation? (I mentioned the Jewish fighters before the state was founded.)

Hashem wants us to have a home, but He wants to dwell among us. When His home is rebuilt when Moshiach comes. Until then, even in the Land that is rightfully ours, we are in golus still.

There's so much more to it. You can fill a bookshelf with his seforim. I don't claim to know them all.

The article states that the land was given to the Jews BEFORE the holocaust so no guilt there. (I already corrected that in my post so please edit it as well.)
I dont think the arabs will agree to anything about the Jews as they want us dead so thats a moot point.
The rebbe was pained by the zionist sabatoge of rescue? Ha! Thats funny because the rebbe did everything in his power, including bribing officials, to ensure the zionist stay away from his community. So the rebbe himself sabatoged the zionists rescue efforts only to allow the zionist to rescue him and only him. Why didnt the rebbe negotiate with them to allow more people to be rescued? More importantly, why didnt the rebbe send women and children ahead of him as is customary to do in times of danger (and you need to save people?)
I dont recall anyone saying that we are not in galus even if we live in Israel. We dont have a Beis Hamikdash yet nor do I see anyone building one. The point was that we will protect ourselves against harm which what Hashem commanded us to do. Why are you denying that?
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Heyaaa




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 08 2015, 4:30 pm
amother wrote:
I just googled it for the names because I didn't want to make a mistake*, I just copy pasted. I wasn't counting numbers. And I'm not really comparing their terror vs ours, which is better or worse, I'm just saying that using killing as a method of achieving your aims is different than using politics like in KJ.

(*Do you guys realize what pressure I'm under not to say a single word that will be misread by SOMEONE on here? Give a girl a break and don't jump on my word choice unless you're sure you read it right and you really want to clarify or disagree, not attack. Like whoever didn't notice I wrote prestate British Palestine ...)


When those 2 groups did kill it was at their aggressors, with a reason every time. It's nice that the New York times calls them a terrorist organization but when someone has an agenda for every action, they're not a terror organization. You can say they weren't passive but you can't say they were terrorists.
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Heyaaa




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 08 2015, 4:33 pm
amother wrote:
The article states that the land was given to the Jews BEFORE the war so no guilt there. (I already corrected that in my post so please edit it as well.)
I dont think the arabs will agree to anything about the Jews as they want us dead so thats a moot point.
The rebbe was pained by the zionist sabatoge of rescue? Ha! Thats funny because the rebbe did everything in his power, including bribing officials, to ensure the zionist stay away from his community. So the rebbe himself sabatoged the zionists rescue efforts only to allow the zionist to rescue him and only him. Why didnt the rebbe negotiate with them to allow more people to be rescued? More importantly, why didnt the rebbe send women and children ahead of him as is customary to do in times of danger (and you need to save people?)
I dont recall anyone saying that we are not in galus even if we live in Israel. We dont have a Beis Hamikdash yet nor do I see anyone building one. The point was that we will protect ourselves against harm which what Hashem commanded us to do. Why are you denying that?


Supposedly he might have. There was a thread here a year ago where some argued that it's his fault more people died and others argued that he did everything he could to save as many as possible.

What actually happened? Hopefully one of the satmar amothers have more clear information on what happened.
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Maya




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 08 2015, 5:00 pm
sequoia wrote:
Maya, you mentioned once that you read a book about this situation. What was it called?

Which situation are you referring to?
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 08 2015, 5:11 pm
Maya wrote:
Which situation are you referring to?


The rescue of the Satmar rebbe during WWII.
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Heyaaa




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 08 2015, 5:20 pm
sequoia wrote:
The rescue of the Satmar rebbe during WWII.


Was it perfidy?
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amother


 

Post Sun, Mar 08 2015, 5:44 pm
amother wrote:
Like trying to annex 570 acres of land near Kiryas Joel, against the will of the locals? Why is it ok to agitate for that in the secular courts, and at the secular ballot box?

so..maybe you would like if all satmar people in need of housing go live amongst locals. Then they can try going back to satmar for help in building mikvahs where they live since they'll need it..they dont drive y'know.
off topic. ..but so was your post. And just so you know, im satmar and I thought the protest was wrong this time.
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black sheep




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 08 2015, 5:49 pm
the more I read satmar amother talk, the less respect I have for the satmar "rebbe." I know we are not supposed to say anything negative about anybody's spiritual leaders on this site, but we are talking about the survival of the jewish people here, and in addition to the physical threat, we are engaged in a PR war to save israel from the world ganging up on Her. I am usually quiet on social media and never send comments to papers online, but this past year I have found myself defending isreal online repeatedly from people who claim israel is the real terrorist, and they don't deserve the land, etc. I cannot stomach the fact that NOW I AM DEFENDING ISRAEL's RIGHT TO EXIST AND DEFEND HERSELF WITH A FRUM JEW!!! SUPPORTED BY HER "REBBE"!!! seriously, I am sick to my stomach. this is a rebbe? this is a jew?

those satmar chasidim who stand and protest israel or netanyahu are literally over the issur "all taamod al dam re'echa" literally standing their ground and standing for their own recognition on the blood of their brothers in israel. the satmar "rebbe" who tells his chasidim that the israeli's are the terrorists has a personal hand in the shedding of jewish blood, by encouraging the modern day blood libel of israel as the villain. the palestinians don't only wage physical war, they wage PR war to get others on their case, and satmar has joined forces with Israel's biggest enemy, intent in our destruction.

maybe you don't agree with netanyahu's politics. or maybe you don't like the idea of war. or maybe you prefer moshiach come and save us. but meanwhile, whatever your preferences, those living in israel have a choice to either be murdered in cold blood by the terrorists all around them, or to defend themselves and pray for success in surviving. I, for one, am on the side of my brethren in Israel, all of them, from the frummest to the most secular, and even the non-jews living there. I support them, and I will defend them as much as I can from the PR campaign launched against them. I will defend them from the evil and damaging words spoken by their enemies. it is all I can do now, and I will do it all. I will even, it seems, defend them from "the rebbe." and if my comment gets deleted, I would like to know why the rebbe can say derogatory and damaging things against my people but I cannot help them defend themselves.
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Maya




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 08 2015, 5:53 pm
Heyaaa wrote:
Was it perfidy?

I read Perfidy many years ago and I don't remember much of it.

I read a novel which first introduced me to what had happened, and then I discovered a lot more after I did my research.
There was also a two-part article written online recently which describes it all in detail.
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amother


 

Post Sun, Mar 08 2015, 5:55 pm
I believe the original shitta has been distorted somehow.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 08 2015, 5:55 pm
Heyaaa wrote:
Was it perfidy?
Perfidy? http://www.amazon.com/Perfidy-.....rfidy
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Maya




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 08 2015, 6:22 pm
amother wrote:
I believe the original shitta has been distorted somehow.

How so?
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 08 2015, 6:27 pm
Maya wrote:
I read Perfidy many years ago and I don't remember much of it.

I read a novel which first introduced me to what had happened, and then I discovered a lot more after I did my research.
There was also a two-part article written online recently which describes it all in detail.


Yes, someone PMed me the link to the article. That's what I meant.
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amother


 

Post Sun, Mar 08 2015, 6:29 pm
Not everthing the satmar rebbes of today do or say reflect what the satmar rebbe z"l stood for.
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Maya




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 08 2015, 6:34 pm
amother wrote:
Not everthing the satmar rebbes of today do or say reflect what the satmar rebbe z"l stood for.

I disagree. It is my opinion that he stood for all that, and people who deny it do so in order to avoid thinking badly of their Rebbe. It's the same with all of his shittahs, not only the anti-Zionist issue.
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