Explain the work situation in London to me please!

amother

Sat, Mar 07 2015, 8:45 pm

So we are looking into moving to Golders Green later this year (international move). Yes, I know about how expensive it is, school situation, etc so don't tell me how crazy it is. Trust me, I know but we're probably going to do it anyway.

What I need some clarity on is how people work and manage to live as well. The research we've done up til now, shows that to live with a mortgage, school tuition, Jewish lifestyle etc, we'd need to earn £50,000 a year, after tax which is about £70,000 gross. As far as I can tell, you need to be a senior accountant or lawyer to earn that amount of money. And most people living in Golders Green are not professionals. So how do they live? Is going on benefits and working off the books the only option?

Something doesn't sound right to me here so tell me where I've gone in this research project!!

pesek zman

Sat, Mar 07 2015, 10:27 pm

Where did you hear that GG doesn't have professionals? My Husband is from there and says that it not true at all. It is a big mix of people but definitely lots and lots of people are professionals. Plus, keep in mind that school fees tend to be a lot less than in the US (if that's where you're from) since many are subsidized by the government (for secular studies) and you only have to pay the top-up fees for kodesh. Also, health insurance is subsidized by government so (unlike in the US where large chunks of your salary provably goes towards health insurance) that's a big savings. Real estate is extremely expensive because everyone (frum) pretty much wants to live in the same area which drives up already high prices.

amother

Sun, Mar 08 2015, 6:53 am

If you want to live off benefits and work off the books you want to live in Stamford Hill, where that is normal.

In GG, many are professionals or work v v hard at business, often both parents work, many struggle financially esp in this generation, grandparents often well to do but they had different financial setups (housing was much cheaper, wages went further etc , so ok to have SAHM and working father).

Many of the younger generation moved to Edgware as housing is cheaper and the community is growing. Or Manchester, where much cheaper housing but schooling is more of an issue.

The shops in GG are full of v expensive products, and food is beyond normal, but many of us who live there would never shop at the frum clothing stores, or houseware stores, and buy the minimum at the kosher shops, we shop around for value and buy mostly fresh food from Asda and make most food ourseves, no frozen or prepackaged stuff (yes I work full time as well). There are ways to make it happen.

But if you need an income of 50,000, then you need more than 70 gross, tax on over 45000 is 40% I think. And there aren't any jobs to just walk into at 70 grand, unless you are a very experienced professional and head hunted. Even professionals don't get that amount until they are v v high level.

mirah2

Sun, Mar 08 2015, 11:55 am

It's also a bit difficult to comment without knowing more about you e.g. how many kids and of what age? Would you both work or one work part-time/be a SAHM? Would you school privately or send your kids to a state-aided Jewish school? Does living a Jewish lifestyle include buying only hechshered products, or would you buy the minimum needed kosher and be prepared to shop at regular supermarkets (ASDA/Tesco) for the rest? And are you really only considering living in Golders Green or are other parts of Jewish NW London an option?

For the record, we get by as a young married couple, no kids, renting in Hendon on £30k a year gross plus savings (yes, I know this isn't sustainable - due to the job market/jobseeking hubby has been in and out of work since graduating 1.5 years ago so not our choice). For us to live comfortably, not rely on savings, and even think about starting a family, I reckon we'd need to earn £55k - £60k a year gross between us. The cost of renting in Hendon plays a huge part as this is where most of our costs go...(and GG is more expensive).

Last edited by mirah2 on Sun, Mar 08 2015, 5:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Sun, Mar 08 2015, 2:52 pm

OP
Ok, so I'm getting that I'll need to work, at least part time. Still don't think that our combined salaries will cut it but will need to look into that.

Where are these professionals working? Jewish companies? Non Jewish? I'm surprised someone mentioned that living off benefits and working off the books is a Stamford Hill thing because it seemed to be the set up of so many people we've spoken to in GG. Oh and for the record, no, I don't want to live like that!

How common is it for men and/or women to work for a non Jewish company, in the City or out of the Jewish area? (Heimish people, not MO).

My kids are of school age and GG is the only option, although I'm not sure what that has to do with it. Schools haven't been decided yet.

Mrs Bissli

Sun, Mar 08 2015, 3:15 pm

As others said, most people I know who live in GG are professionals. Also many of them have been there for decades when the property was still more affordable. Some young couples in GG/Hendon have help with down payment for their flats from their parents, quite a number of them cannot afford to buy so rent. We know young married couples, say both husband and wives are teachers or work in public sectors, maybe combined salary of £50k +/-10k who can't afford Hendon/GG/Edgware and are increasingly moving to Borehamwood.

While the top tax rate is 40%, this kicks in after about £31k, so the actual effective tax rate is usually lower. On tax, VAT is rather steep but basic items like foodstuff and children's clothes are exempt.

There are people who struggle financially, really struggle to put occasional poultry or cheap cuts on meat on the table. Unfortunately there's a growing demand for food distribution services like GIFT, but local councils have very looong waiting list and it has become more difficult to get housing supports.

OP, if you're considering international move, I strongly recommend you do a trial visit and spend Shabbat. Especially if you have school age (or soon-to-be-school age) children.

mirah2

Sun, Mar 08 2015, 5:40 pm

amother wrote:

OP
Where are these professionals working? Jewish companies? Non Jewish? I'm surprised someone mentioned that living off benefits and working off the books is a Stamford Hill thing because it seemed to be the set up of so many people we've spoken to in GG. Oh and for the record, no, I don't want to live like that!

How common is it for men and/or women to work for a non Jewish company, in the City or out of the Jewish area? (Heimish people, not MO).

My kids are of school age and GG is the only option, although I'm not sure what that has to do with it. Schools haven't been decided yet.

For Heimish ppl, most options are open - some own their own businesses, some work for other Jewish companies, others (both professionals and businessmen) will work for non-Jewish companies either in the area or in Central London e.g. Hatton Garden for jewellers, central area for lawyers/accountants etc.

The reason I asked whether GG is the only option is precisely because of the point Mrs Bissli and others have raised - most ppl who own property in the area can only do so because they either have owned their homes for decades before the prices shot up, or as young couples have had parental help to buy their homes. Otherwise, the only option is to rent at high prices (we spend more on rent per month than we ever would on a mortgage). This is an important issue to bear in mind if you're relocating here as your only option for a home in GG is likely to be renting.

If your reason for sticking to GG is the schools, pls bear in mind that not all schools (especially at secondary level) are in GG itself - many are located in other Jewish areas or even outside them. If you're looking for a heimish community, Edgware may be a (marginally) cheaper option to rent or buy in. All I'm trying to point out is that GG is not the centre of the London frum Jewish universe.

Seconding Mrs Bissli's suggestion to spend an orientation Shabbat (or two!) here before making your decision.

mirah2

Sun, Mar 08 2015, 5:45 pm

And yes - I have no idea how we're ever going to own our own home here in London in the near future. I'm a giyoret and husband is from overseas, neither of us have well-off parents who can afford to give us a sizeable down-payment towards a place of our own. Only options seem to be renting for the long-term, gritting our teeth and moving to Borehamwood/up north, or leave the country altogether - which is a wee bit frustrating when I see several of my university friends settled down with buying their own places by now...

amother

Sun, Mar 08 2015, 8:30 pm

mirah2 wrote:

We are similar, but got a first time buyer big mortgage with a small flat in Hendon so at least we are paying a mortgage not rent. Then iyh in a few years we will be able to sell at a profit, as prices have consistently risen for many years, so our 250,000 2 bed flat will be worth 300-320 in 5 years, iyh, and buy something bigger. That is what most people without parental help do. Upgrade slowly, move outwards or to a less popular road or get a doer upper in a popular area.

London is expensive even for my non jewish co workers, who don't have kosher food or other restrictions. We each had some pre marriage savings that made the deposit, and were v fortunate that our parents paid for our wedding (which was really their big event, our choice would have been much smaller and less expensive, so it worked out). But we put our money towards our future.

I have no idea how the people in the lavish houses fund themselves, some are multi millionaires, like the big names and their many children, who all have homes bought for them, others live in debt, others have v successful businesses or in property, lots of lawyers, but many professionals, like accountants and doctors live in more modest homes and do not live extravagantly at all (both my parent's generation, who came from poorer homes and made their own money, and our generation, who spend it all on the mortgage and childcare).

I know several GG people who look so stylish and their homes are stunning, but they actually do it all themselves, buy second hand and make it all up with their own style, just v talented and you would never guess.

I don't know anyone who lives off benefits and illegal money. But there are different overlapping communities in GG (chassidish, litvish, yekkish, modern orthodox and modern yeshivish/ litvish, with lots of overlap). Other than the chassidish, who I know few of, and those I know are v wealthy and live in enormous houses, I don't know of anyone, and I do know many people in all those groups, however struggling, who would be prepared to live in such a low class/ shnorrer fashion, if that isn't too rude.

londonn16

Sun, Mar 08 2015, 9:21 pm

First In reply to "a mother," I am from Stamford Hill and my husband holds a professional job on the books, so does majority of the people living here.
Sadly many people here in Stamford Hill AND in Golders Green live off benefits not by choice, so please don't insult others.
And secondly London is just as difficult as anywhere else in the world to hold down a well paid job, but if you're willing to be employed and committed to work hard you have a big chance!
Btw Stamford Hill employers really try to employ yidden, even though they have to pay higher wages unlike employers of 'other areas.'

amother

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 5:18 am

OP again
I have been there before, DH has made a pilot trip, and we are planning another one together to finalise schooling and hopefully housing.

We've chosen GG because I insist on being near family, and that's where they are. That is non-negotiable because we're leaving a lot of family and moving to where there isn't much. And the fact that I want to be within walking distance of them is making it even harder to find a place but I'm not ready to compromise on that just yet.

Basically what I'm getting from the replies is that in order not to have to struggle, if you're going to be living on a certain standard, you need to be really wealthy. Or lower your standards. Hmmm, I have what to think about...

amother

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 5:34 am

londonn16 wrote:

I am not being deliberately offensive, but just saying it how I know it. I am sure there must be people in SH who live legally, but I know many who life on benefits and deal businesses only in cash (illegally), and I don't know any in GG who live like that. Maybe I know the more honest in GG, they definitely aren't rich but would never cook the books that way, but the people I know in SH are less fussy about such laws. Those I know in GG are of the more litvish variety and very law abiding and British in their thinking. SH types not (if I say any more I will be accused of hating certain groups which is not true, it is just who I see in different groups). I know this through my work in SH area, socially in GG. I probably just know the "wrong type" in GG to know those who live off benefits and cash in hand, as the OP said many do.

I expect most of the kollel in Edgware do live off benefits in some way, but there isn't a proper kollel in GG so the norm is for people to work, in town, or locally, whatever. Maybe those who daven at certain shuls I would have nothing to do with may behave very differently to the Munks, GGBH, Machzikei Adas or Hagers etc types.

amother

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 5:43 am

[quote="5mom"]

amother wrote:

If you want to live off benefits and work off the books you want to live in Stamford Hill, where that is normal.

I don't think it's ok to smear a whole community like that. (Said as an MO person who has never been in Stamford Hill.)

As I said, this is my professional knowledge of this area, I am not slandering them, but it is easier to read insults than factual reporting. There may be many who do live honestly and are law abiding, there are many who live off benefits, manipulate the law in shocking ways (eg,many do not get married legally and then claim extra money as a single mother of many children is a totally normal thing that has been addressed by the authorities) and deal exclusively cash in hand, or import diamonds sewn into their clothes for example, whom I have to handle at work all the time. It is a normal way of life for many in that area. Obviously not for all. I would hope not.

amother

Powderblue

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 6:14 am

amother wrote:

It does not appear that you are too familiar with Stamford Hill.
I live here and let me tell you that I do not know anyone (I am talking about many, many people) who has not married legally.
You may be talking about a few isolated cases.
How many people are you talking about that smuggle diamonds sewn into their clothing?

There is a fair number people in SH who whilst earning a livelihood, do not actually work, I.e. they own properties that are managed by Letting Agents.
Many people here work very hard for a living and I know many people who have several jobs in order to make ends meet.
Rents are sky high and the Housing Benefit no longer covers the entire rent. People are left with a considerable shortfall and have to pay out of pocket, hence they are FORCED to try and find a job, which is not easy at all. People are struggling and not coming by adequately.

Last edited by amother on Wed, Oct 21 2015, 10:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 8:39 am

BH we are very fortunate that our family bought us a house. But otherwise there is no way we could have ever bought one. Even earning over £60,000 between us. Just is not enough.

Re the benefits, I am young/heimish and all of my friends and their husbands claim benefits and work. I am extremely honest and would never dream of doing this however much of a struggle it means for us. It really annoys me, and to be honest, these people have much more disposable income than we have! They can afford more that we can since they are earning similar but rent is being paid for them and all sorts of other benefits. If you're on one, they throw them all at you and you can get a lot free!

Also, you can't save up benefits or they'll stop the benefits so it means they live a better quality of life being in a position to spend everything they earn. But this is not a complaint at all (except the honesty part) because at the end of the day we have a house/investment so are in an amazing situation.

amother

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 8:58 am

amother wrote:

You are extremely lucky to own your house and to be working and making an HONEST living! You have the best of both! May Hashem bestow his blessings upon you and your family.

amother

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 9:10 am

Ruchi wrote:

You know what you know, I know what I know. Working as a SW in SH/ Homerton means you get to know a lot about people's finances, hence I know plenty.

And who is forced to try to find a job - for goodness sake, it is a normal expectation to work, not to be handed benefits for the privilege of living. No one has the rigth not to work and live off housing benefit and income support, it is supposed to be for those who are looking for work or cant work because of incapacity etc. Not an automatic right because you do the UK a favour by living there paying no taxes. I give up with these attitudes.

In GG, where I live, people work, locally, in the city, wherever. Maybe there are equal numbers of those who expect not to, but bh I don't have anything to do with them. Maybe they are the ones supporting arm wrestling. I don't have anything to do with them either.