Explain the work situation in London to me please!

mirah2

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 5:02 am

Writing on a moving bus, so sorry for mistakes...

There are definitely stereotypes around someone living in GG. What these are will depend both on which circles you move in and who you are talking to.

We are best described as MO, but with a lot of exposure to the chareidi world and friends/social connections there. My overwhelming impression of GG ppl is not of wealth but of frumness, so if I meet someone who says they live there my first thought is either charedi or wannabe charedi (maybe BT). More will depend on that person and what I can id about their shul etc.

There will be more nuances based on shul/school/hashkafa etc. that I'm probably not aware of because I'm not in those 'sets'. Maybe some will find it cliquey. But there is a range of communities and types in GG if that's what you're getting at.

amother

Powderblue

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 5:04 am

amother wrote:

Ok, tell me something. This might be something more for outsiders to answer, and I admit, a bit off topic:

Does GG have a reputation as being snobby, cut off, exclusive or similar? This is not something I've been told specifically but just a vibe that I've been getting in the midst of all this research, and may be wrong.

If the answer is yes, then why? Is it because it's notoriously expensive and so people living there are either considered wealthy or live as if they are? Is it any different say to Boro Park - different crowd, I know, but the sentiment may be similar?

Therefore, if I move to GG and then will tell another Londoner, "I live in GG", are they going to get an instant perception of what I'm like? And what would that perception be?

Or does that maybe depend on where in GG I live, how I dress, which shul we go to etc? (In which case I'd probably feel more comfortable about it, strange as that sounds, because I have some control over it, whereas otherwise it is more about identifying a whole group of people by their postcode...)

Last edited by amother on Wed, Oct 21 2015, 10:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 5:13 am

I've been following this thread and thought I'd add my thoughts as I'm from the UK.

I grew up very near GG, and most of my friends lived there. After I got married I lived there for a few years until we made aliya, 3 of my siblings live there with their families.

In terms of work etc- sometimes I feel like it's easier in the UK. Maybe it's just because I grew up there, and we seriously considered moving back for a while. Dh could get a good job there, and I would have worked in a school. I'm familiar with the schools and while we may not have got into our top choice, there are plenty of schools to choose from, especially if you are willing to branch out a little bit. I personally do not know anyone who has no school for their child (and I probably know about 70% of people who live in gg, unless they moved mid-year or something...) Food is expensive, but I don't think it's much more than here in israel. Clothes etc- you don't have to shop in the fancy stores- go to brent cross and shop in h&m, or asda and matalan- all nice clothes but far, far cheaper than the jewish shops.

Benefits- I don't know most people's financial situations, but most people I know in gg do not LIVE off benefits. You receive certain benefits for cheaper childcare if you work a certain amount, and everyone gets child benefits (much more so than here!) In Stamford Hill, I do think it's far more normal to have your rent paid for by benefits- I have a lot of relatives there and they were shocked to hear we were paying our own rent when we lived in gg.

Lastly, snobby etc- it all depends where you live and who you want to be. I really don't want to speak L'H, so I'll try avoid anything derogatory Smile

There are PLENTY of people in gg who are not at all snobby- we lived on Ambrose Ave, and lots of those little roads are really lovely. No big, fancy houses- yes people have cars, even 2 big ones- but that's more convenience than anything else. If you live on a big house on cranbourne or princes park ave, that's a different story (not that it makes you snobby, it's just more of a statement). I personally did not like the fact that everyone seems to be more 'dressed up'- I used to run to Kosher Kingdom for milk in the morning and felt practically naked in my tichel and weekday clothes, in comparison to many other women who wear sheitals all the time and (what I would consider) shabbos clothes. Then again, that's just me. I'm far more comfortable in israel where there's no pressure in my community to look quite so 'put-together'.

Any questions, feel free to ask! I'll call myself Sunny

Raisin

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 5:13 am

I know a people who moved to NW London and are not from there who had a hard time fitting in and finding a shul they liked. Although other people love it there and have tons of friends. My friend just moved to London and moved to Edgware for this reason.

btw parts of hendon are very close to GG. You don't need to be in GG to be in walking distance of your relatives.

I wouldn't worry about being labelled as snobby, but more about if the specific shul/community you want to join is friendly and welcoming to outsiders.

amother

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 5:30 am

I'm from Edgware and although I don't know why, GG does have a reputation of being snobby. I know lots of lovely ppl from there, not snobby at all, so of course it's not all that. But for some reason it does have that reputation. Maybe it's because it used to be the main centre of anything Jewish yet middle-upper class. So while SH has always had a big Jewish population, GG was always seen as far classier/wealthier. It's a socioeconomic phenomenon that moving to the West is superior and this has certainly been true in London. There's a big Jewish population in NE London, but they're looked at a little as the por relations. Like GG is one step closer to the kodesh hakdoshim, l'havdil! There are now many Jews (and restaurants, kosher delis, bookstores etc) in Borehamwood, Edgware etc, but GG was probably the first big Jewish centre with good restaurants and nice delis.

GG property is probably more expensive than Edgware, which adds to the wealthy feeling there. And yeah, like sb else said, ppl dress more smartly there, I assume (but am really just guessing) getting their clothing fromAntwerp or Paris and wearing more jewelry. Edgware is def more understated.

But these really are just all stereotypes. All the GG ppl I know are wonderful baalei chesed, kind and loving and generous.

amother

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 5:41 am

I grew up and live in Hendon, dh grew up in the heart of GG. I don't personally find much of GG snobby, but I guess I know so many people it would be hard to, as it is actually fun going there on shabbos or to the shops as I meet so many friends etc. Dh is oblivious to such things, and talks to everyone. We go most shabbatot, we live on the border between GG and Hendon.

There are those who look me up and down with a snort, whether that is because I am not frum enough, or wearing more casual clothes, or a mitpachat, who knows, who cares.

On shabbos, in Hendon most people say good shabbos or shabbat shalom (funny tradition here: one person says one, the responder answers the other!) even if we don't know each other, in GG only people we know respond or exchange greetings, but we know many people so it doesn't seem to matter.

This is my experience, if you dress more BY (I dress more modern in style, although cover up to neck and below elbows and knees, but wear more colourful clothes and don't do frum style or big sheital) maybe you will have different experiences.

They say Edgware is friendlier, and Borehamwood is snobbier (acc to friends who left there to come here), but a lot of it must be individual. I don't know.

amother

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 6:00 am

I moved to GG without knowing anyone in NW London. I did not find it snobby or difficult to fit in at all. I was invited for Shabbat meals right from the first week I was there and generally had more invitations that I could accept.

I think that fitting in depends largely on whih shul you go to. I went to the main MO shul there, although I occasionally went to other shuls and was comfortable there too. There were others at my shul who had moved from other places and they said they found it hard to fit in until they came to that shul.

As for the work situation, almost everyone I knew were either doctors, dentists, lawyers or worked in academia.

I also know some people who are more right wing (not MO) who make money off the books by renting rooms out. This is quite common, and me and many of my friends rented rooms with such families.

I second the recommendation from a previous poster that you also consider Hendon which has slightly more affordable housing and much of which is in easy walking distance of GG.

nylon

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 1:00 pm

We left the UK 6 years ago and at that time, property prices were eye watering which is a big part of why we left. We lived in Finchley, not GG, which has more variation in property prices (down by Kinloss it's just as expensive or close to it). We could have swung Borehamwood maybe, but not London proper.

IF my DH had bought a different flat in 1998, we could have swung it using that equity. But since he'd decided to play it safe and buy a 1 bedroom, we never did the climb up the ladder that was absolutely essential at that time unless you had wealthy parents. Today, I can't imagine. You need to earn six figures to afford to buy in NW London.

As a foreigner I found London in general to be a bit difficult to crack. People aren't rude but they are more standoffish. Also... tighter knit, perhaps? Many London Jews have all their family locally, their school friends, etc. And as a foreigner I didn't know anyone and couldn't play the local "Jewish geography" very well.

Mrs Bissli

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 1:22 pm

No, GG does not have a reputation for being snobby or exclusive. It’s too diverse to be smug, people I know range from yekkish to MO to haredi to Israelis to Iraqis of different age groups. (But having said that I personally think you ARE entitled to be a bit smug if you/DH are members of Munk’s… ;-)

Though I agree it's not necessarily the oozing, warm welcome communities as in OOT. many people you meet are either born in London, went to the same schools and socialise among close friends and family so you'll continue to make efforts especially if you have few friends or families. You can say the same thing for Hendon (I actually find Hendon a bit more cliquish and slightly more materialistic, oops, aspirational), Finchley or HGS or Edgware, or NY/NJ communities for that matter.

The other poster is absolutely right about the schools. I suggest you contact NAJOS as well as individual schools.

amother

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 1:42 pm

Mrs Bissli wrote:

Well, Munks is the equivalent of royalty, after all!

People are people, I find certain shuls v snobby and others find my Hendon shul snobby, although I often chat to complete strangers there and have random shabbos guests, and I am not alone in that. I think it is the luck of the draw, and maybe misinterpreting the British reserve (remember, many of the older GG generation have German parentage who came in the 1940s and also v reserved).

The divide between eruv v non eruv user can also be a bit hostile.

amother

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 7:41 pm

amother wrote:

from munks! I'm so proud to be considered royalty! I think we are an amazing community, not judgemental and well integrated. Not elitist at all. I have only ever gone to Munks and please G-d always will! No one there is snobby!

We are Hagers loyal but have close Munks ties (ex Menorah) as do so many of my favourite people! Especially when we eat with proper yekkes, who ask us for a Friday night start at 19:05 and wash before kiddush or sing some unique German zemer!

But that is GG for you, Munks and Hagers unite! We joke that our family simchas start exactly 27.5 minutes late ;-)