Internal debate | Imamother

Log in / Sign Up

List of Forums + New Post Recipe Box Usergroups Following My Posts Bookmarks

Private Messages Advanced Search Rules New User Guide FAQ Advertise Contact Us

Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions

Internal debate

1 2 Next

View latest: 24h 48h 72h

amother

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 9:03 am

I have been having this internal debate that maybe others have gone through and can share some insight. If israel is our homeland and it is now available for us to live there- why aren't we all moving- is it wrong to be staying in my nice cushy home and not take on the hardships of a move? So many have put their lives on the line for israel to be free and available for us, am I being selfish/spoiled to not want to be there full time?

imasinger

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 9:25 am

One answer I have heard is that we are supposed to go up in holiness.

As a BT, I know how important it is not to take on too much too soon.

For anyone, it can be challengng getting used to the changes of life in EY. You have to be ready for it.

Because if you push yourself to go out of some sense of obligation, and you are not ready, you may end up leaving and feeling worse than if you never went.

Don't get me wrong; I think it's wonderful for people to make aliya. And many settle in and are very happy.

But nobody should be pressured before they are ready. When mashiach comes, we'll all be there.

water_bear88

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 9:30 am

I mostly agree with Imasinger. The one addition I'd have is that if it's mainly an internal pressure, and if it's strong and persistent enough, that may be a sign you do want to make aliyah. I think you do have to really want to be here to have a successful aliyah.

amother

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 9:55 am

but is it wrong to not want to live there- like, let's say I won the lottery (I didn't, but that would be nice) My first thought would be which tzedakah can I help. I still don't think with all the money in the world I would want to live there- vacation yes- live, not so much- how terrible is that???

ruby slippers

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 9:56 am

imasinger wrote:

. When mashiach comes, we'll all be there.

amen to that and soon!

heidi

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 10:02 am

amother wrote:

Yes.
You asked. I answered. Please don't kill the messenger.

amother

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 10:11 am

could you elaborate on the yes???

amother

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 10:13 am

Why then are there still poskim and top rabbeim still in the USA- why aren't they all saying you should move??

chani8

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 10:18 am

If you don't want to live here, it's not your fault. It's min hashamayim.

When it is min hashamayim for you to live here, you'll want to live here.

grace413

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 10:49 am

It's not all hardships here. Many of us are happy here, living meaningful and fulfilling lives. Sometimes we even have fun!

Most olim didn't say "I'll be miserable in EY but it's a mitzvah so I have to go." In priniciple I think all Jews should live here, but in the real world I understand that many people would not be happy here. If you already know you'll be unhappy here, don't come.

amother

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 10:51 am

I don't know that I would be unhappy- but I don't know that I would be happy either and I think experimenting with a trial run would not work for us.

grace413

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 11:00 am

amother wrote:

I don't know that I would be unhappy- but I don't know that I would be happy either and I think experimenting with a trial run would not work for us.

I don't advocate "trial runs" because being committed is a crucial part of a successful aliyah.

shoshanim999

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 11:13 am

Just wondering what Op and her husband do for a living? Would that work in Israel?

PinkFridge

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 11:58 am

There are so many factors re the lottery question:
- What ages are your children?
- How big is the lottery? Realistically, what will you be left with, and will it ease the transition to life in E"Y?
- Do you have chutz la'aretz obligations you'll be able to fill if not living there full time? I believe there's a doctor who lives in the midwest who was told by a major gadol NOT to move to E"Y because he was needed there.
Similarly, I read an article that IIRC was about school presidents who were major geviriim. One of them said that he was in a position to retire and live comfortably and learn full-time, but he was told to continue working because his tafkid was to continue to be able to help the klal. And I know people who live well, have an apartment in E"Y, and are there as much as they can be, for yom tov, etc.

These are just two factors, among others, but they can't be dismissed.

Sanguine

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 12:06 pm

amother wrote:

I don't think living in EY is a hardship. I don't want a "cushy home". (I could use more money, but if I was in America I wouldn't be rich either).

I'm different than you (you're amother). A cushy home and many materialistic items aren't high on my list of priorities.

I live in a large house. I even have 2 dishwashers in my kitchen. My 5 kids live in 4 bedrooms. But if you saw my house you'd probably say it's a hardship. My house isn't cushy.

What's really important is what's in the house. My children growing up in EY. My children (teens and older) understand what it means to live in Eretz HaKodesh among Am Yisrael. Everything we do every day is surrounded by EY and Am Yisrael. Everyone you meet on the streets are Jews like you whether they're secular, DL, Chareidi... We're all part of Am Yisrael. All the Tiyulim my kids go on in school or just with friends are walking in Eretz Yisrael - Eretz HaAvot. Their own trips with friends to the Kotel, Kever Rachel, Maarat HaMachpela... they can only do here. We do so many more mitzvot here that we think of every day. "Did you Maaser the nectarines from our tree?" "Were those Shmitta cucumbers - where do I put the peels?". Kedusha of EY is in our daily life.

I don't think you're being "selfish/spoiled" by staying in your cushy house. I think you're really losing out cause I don't think you got the better deal.

water_bear88

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 12:29 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

The vacation home in EY is very spoiled and selfish behavior. There are buildings full of apartments that sit empty for most of the year because their owners are living their cushy lives in chutz la'aretz. Construction companies have way more incentive to sell expensive apartments to rich chutznikim than they do to normal Israelis, so housing prices in Yerushalayim continue to climb, young couples who aren't being supported by parents can't afford rent (or if they can, don't have much left over to save towards a mortgage) and we end up moving out of the city. Your "hishtadlus" is coming at the expense of thousands of young Israelis, including those olim who have bothered to sacrifice and make it work in EY.

naturalmom5

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 12:41 pm

water_bear88 wrote:

Excuse me .. Communism DOESNT WORK
Those spoiled ppl living cushy lives in chutz laretz give a ton of tzodoka
Without them the poverty among the charedim would be even worse than it already is
Please think things through

Iymnok

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 12:46 pm

Have you heard of Rechavia? It's an overpriced ghost town.
They are trying to do the same thing in Ramat Givat Ze'ev. If you're planning on coming for every Yom Tov, but a machsan and get a deal with a hotel.

A big part of poverty here id's the sky high rents that keep rising.

water_bear88

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 1:07 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

I'm not talking about communism. And why should Yerushalayim belong only to the chareidim? Yerushalayim belongs to all Jews. For the record, arnona (property tax) is paid by the resident of an apartment and goes to the city. People of under a certain income pay significantly reduced arnona. Because Yerushalayim has such a high poverty rate, a relatively low percentage of people pay full arnona. This means the city gets less tax money, and thus has greater trouble paying for basic services. Chasing middle-class Israelis out of the city after they finish school means chasing out tax money- students don't usually pay full arnona, but most dual-income young couples probably do. Thank G-d the knesset finally decided to charge double arnona on ghost apartments- that's at least a step in the right direction.

Yerushalayim is not just a nice spot for a vacation, it's my home. If you don't see it as yours then please stay in chutz la'aretz- we don't need you here.

heidi

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 1:08 pm

Thank You Sanguine for expressing so beautifully exactly what I was thinking. I do think that living in America is easier in just about every aspect-- from shopping to leisure time to salaries etc. I still think we get the better end of the deal.

Page 1 of 2

1 2 Next