Internal debate | Imamother

Sanguine

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 10:11 am

I always say it's a problem. Everyone can't live in Yerushalayim but everyone has a right to live there. The competition for that holy land is too high. All those poor couples are just going to have to move out of Yerushalayim. Yes you came here for Ir HaKodesh but you can take a bus every morning. Like I said, I live in a large house (200 square meters) but the price of it was the same price of a tiny one bedroom apartment in Yerushalayim. You have to spread out. The whole country is Eretz HaKodesh.

I do agree that it's annoying that Chutzniks make the price of apartments prohibitive for the residents of Yerushalayim and it bothers that they feel that they're doing such a wonderful thing by buying an apartment in Yerushalayim but even if they didn't you wouldn't be able to afford the competition. All those retirees from Chu"l that retire in Yerushalayim. They have a right too. They lived and worked in chu"l but always dreamed of retiring in Yerushalayim. (They're filling up the the cemeteries too Wink

)

water_bear88

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 10:18 am

Sanguine wrote:

)

I wouldn't mind as much being pushed out by retirees who actually live there. Yes, every Jew has the right to live there- that's not the same as letting real estate sit empty for years.

As far as burial goes, I won't argue with you. I personally think we should go back to the mishnaic style of 2-stage burial for everybody.

amother

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 10:59 am

op here- I guess I should have been clearer when I said cushy- I am not wealthy- my husband works crazy long hours, but because of that I and the kids have the basic necessities and I appreciate that and I see the kids as growing B"H into beautiful adults. Not that it would not be the same in Israel and not that I could turn around in a second here and it could all change- but I STINK at change. what sanguine said is part of my debate- yes its our holy land, but changing my day to day routine to adjust to something new when things are B"H smooth here scares the begeebers out of me to the point where I get depressed and then scared and then feel bad about not wanting to go. DH would have to work even harder there and we would see him less, but he wants to do it, but I want time with him at least a little bit everyday and we would not have that in EY. (we don't have much of that here except for Shabbat) Its like I am running circles in my head. The idea of chagim and tuyulim and fun in EY sounds amazing, but that is vacation- its the shopping, school, homework, kids friends culturally, bills, going to the doctor- the real life stuff is hard to wrap my head around.

by the way- what is the 2 stage burial???

Sanguine

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 11:05 am

water_bear88 wrote:

As far as burial goes, I won't argue with you. I personally think we should go back to the mishnaic style of 2-stage burial for everybody.

They don't even live here. They come in a box to be buried in EY.

In my family we don't spend much time discussing sickness. So I had an uncle who we knew had cancer and it wasn't good but we don't do daily updates, so one day my mother calls me from NY and says Uncle Moshe is arriving on Flt 001 (Oh, he's better? No, he's travelling with the luggage Sad

)

Sanguine

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 11:19 am

amother wrote:

Not sure what you want us to tell you (the wrong people jumped on your thread). Yes, you should live in Israel but you won't. You may have thought differently if you would have come as a young couple but now it seems that you missed your chance (though I do know some people who came with teenagers but you have to really really want to come to have it work). So you feel a little guilty cause as you said "If israel is our homeland and it is now available for us to live there- why aren't we all moving". So you can feel guilty or at least feel bad but Aliya really isn't an option for you now. Remember "You have to really really want to live here" for it to work out, and you don't.

water_bear88

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 11:19 am

amother wrote:

I want to be clear- my other posts were not directed against you. I don't think it's selfish to take your own and your family's needs into account. I don't know you, or the actual details of your situation. I'm upset about people who try to assuage their own emotional guilt over not making aliyah at the expense of others. If you can't come, and only you know that, be a Yosef who longed for EY but was needed elsewhere.

Quote:

by the way- what is the 2 stage burial???

Burial in the time of the mishna, and from what I know went as far back as the Tanach, was in two stages. The niftar was placed in a burial cave on a platform in what was called "kvura rishona". About a year later (which I think is related to how long we say kaddish nowadays), the bones were collected and buried more compactly, either directly in with those of previously deceased family members or into a small compartment within the family burial cave. This was known as "kvura mishnit" ("second burial"). It's believed the phrase "וישכב ויֵאסף אל אבותיו" (or the equivalent) in the Tanach is referring to some form of this burial- the ideal was to die at a ripe old age and be literally "gathered to your ancestors".

water_bear88

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 11:22 am

Sanguine wrote:

)

I'm sorry about your uncle. Sad

I'm glad people want to buried here at the very least, even if they didn't make it here in life.

Sanguine

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 11:37 am

water_bear88 wrote:

I wouldn't mind as much being pushed out by retirees who actually live there. Yes, every Jew has the right to live there- that's not the same as letting real estate sit empty for years.

Don't know if I should say this but my parents who live in NY own a very very very small apartment in old Katamon (you probably don't want to live there anyway). This apartment isn't even big enough for a young couple since the bedroom isn't big enough for 2 beds embarrassed

. There also wouldn't be any place for a baby in the apartment.

They bought the apartment cause 4 of us live here (all over) so they come for two 7 week visits (chagim and Pesach) and they're getting too old to not have a home base when they visit to rest and relax, and our kids are getting too old to have them move in for a week or two and play with their grandchildren. So they own one of those vacation apartments. It's actually not usually empty since as the grandkids get married they move into that apartment for a while that lets them save rent. They're up to the 4th grandkid who used it (one stayed for 2 years) -they have to move out when my parents are here.

That tiny apartment in Yerushalayi cost the same as my 200 sq meter house in the Shomron.

So they shouldn't have bought that apartment? We all made Aliya and moved away from them. They're not coming on Aliya. But this is how they can come spend nice visits with their kids and grandkids.

water_bear88

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 11:50 am

Sanguine wrote:

I knew someone who lived like that their first year married- maybe one of your relatives! I guess it works with high-risers, though I wouldn't manage with a space quite that small. Maybe I'm misinformed as to the size of most of these vacation apartments- I was under the impression that they were the ones advertised in all the central neighborhoods that look like they're at least 3 rooms each. Tiny studios are of use to a pretty limited section of the population, anyway- they're not what's driving up the prices.

I'm relatively ok with having moved out of the city- we're still in easy commuting distance. I'm sad for the city that one less household is paying full taxes, especially when I see how the city services are so much better in our new yishuv.

Sanguine

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 12:29 pm

water_bear88 wrote:

It's not a "vacation" apartment (whatever that is, I just used the name). It's an apartment in a regular building. (the couples must use a cot in the doorway of the bedroom since the bed is just a queen size bed and it takes up most of the room).

Since I never lived in Yerushalayim and am happier with my Yishuv lifestyle, I tend to think of Yerushalayim as a vacation place (even though my brother does live there - their trick is that they both have years in good computer jobs Very Happy

). I only go to Yerushalayim for visiting or on vacation days (often relatives that are visiting from Chu"l). So when we're there we do touristy things, eat out... vacation. On my Yishuv is my real life.

water_bear88

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 12:42 pm

Sanguine wrote:

I'm very glad you like your yishuv! We're fairly settled in now. It helps me to think that we're in one of the yishuvim around Yerushalayim which still helps the city security-wise, and we still shop in town, so at least some of what we earn in Yerushalayim is going back into the city.

etky

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 1:08 pm

5mom wrote:

As a friend said to me once, do you want to be part of the flow of Jewish history, or do you want to be relegated to a footnote?

That's exactly how I look at it.
But everyone has a different situation in life.
The older I get the less equipped I feel to tell people what they should or should not be doing.
Life is complicated and I think that the contents of this very site are enough to bear me out on that.
Op, the fact that this is an emotional and painful issue for you speaks volumes about where your heart is and the level of your Jewish committment.
I hope you achieve inner peace, either by making some sort of decision or by coming to terms with living in a state of perpetual dilemma.

PinkFridge

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 1:39 pm

water_bear88 wrote:

The vacation home in EY is very spoiled and selfish behavior. There are buildings full of apartments that sit empty for most of the year because their owners are living their cushy lives in chutz la'aretz. Construction companies have way more incentive to sell expensive apartments to rich chutznikim than they do to normal Israelis, so housing prices in Yerushalayim continue to climb, young couples who aren't being supported by parents can't afford rent (or if they can, don't have much left over to save towards a mortgage) and we end up moving out of the city. Your "hishtadlus" is coming at the expense of thousands of young Israelis, including those olim who have bothered to sacrifice and make it work in EY.

I'll bear this in mind should I ever be in the position to consider it Very Happy