Working chareidim | Imamother

cinnamon

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 5:00 am

Anyone can train at any time. It shouldn't take more than a year to make up bagruyot and most academic programs geared to charedim have one or two semesters of mechinot that are counted instead of bagruyot so you won't even need that.

Another option is to study in the open U which does not require any type pf previous education.

ChossidMom

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 9:30 am

it's always advantageous to have bagrut. Those of us that don't send our boys to these places do so for a reason. One main reason is that we want our boys learning Torah full time. It all depends where you're holding.
You don't need to send your son to a bagrut high school because he can always do bagruyot afterwards. For example, I would like my teenage son in yeshiva till he gets married. Then he can learn whatever he wants.

amother

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 9:43 am

ChossidMom wrote:

So he should wait until he has a family to support and then start learning how to do so?

ChossidMom

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 10:52 am

You're asking ME what your son should do?
I'm just telling you what mine is doing. Only you know where you are holding and what kind of framework is right for your son. If I were you and you are Charedi I would ask a spiritual mentor what to do and not Chossidmom on imamother. I don't know you or your son so how can I know what is right for you?

amother

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 1:54 pm

In terms of employers, it should not make a difference. The real advantage of doing bagruyot in high school is the timing. You're done before you have a family. There are courses for adults, but the sad reality is that many men simply can't keep up. The failure rates are high and these are the smart, motivated guys. If you don't get it in high school, catching up is hard.

cinnamon

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 2:22 pm

From what I see around me failure rates are not high at all. In fact I can only think of one person who tried getting a degree and stopped before finishing. (Getting a job after you have your degree is a different issue of course)

Assuming he will go to a yeshiva gdola and not to university, the practical difference between sending your son to a yeshiva ktana or a yeshiva tichonit is not so much in seeking employment but in the type of boy he will become. Families who send to yehivot tichoniot tend to be more modern which will probably make you son more modern. It will also probably make a difference as to which yeshivah gdola he will go to.

Of course there is no absolutes in this regard but that is the general trend as far as I know.

And just by the way, yeshivot tichoniyot are not 'newish' Maarava has been around since the 80's and the yishuv has been around since the 30's or 40's.

cinnamon

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 2:26 pm

amother wrote:

So he should wait until he has a family to support and then start learning how to do so?

The answer to this is yes. If your hashkafa (and his of course) is that a boy should learn as much as possible whenever possible then the boy learns as much as possible whenever possible.
There are plenty of girls who hold this haskafa as well and they study a profession and come into marriage ready and able to support the family for quite a few years.

Frumdoc

Fri, Mar 13 2015, 9:38 am

ChossidMom wrote:

May I ask, in a totally nosy, but not judgemental way, if your sons do have any plans for future income generation ever, or if they plan on their wife/ others supporting the family long term, or just don't make any plan at all?

As I am a real planner personally, I find it hard to imagine how any individual makes no plans whatsoever for their future self support (or anything else). So if their plan is to catch up relevant schooling later in life and then start considering their parnassa, I am not saying that is a bad thing, but I'm interested if they have any plan at all or just don't, and whether you place any value on future planning, financial or otherwise, or this is too much hishtadlus, or other reasoning.

Again, can I say this is just out of pure personal interest, I am not placing a value judgement on your lifestyle and if you chose not to answer, please don't feel pressured. But if anyone else can respond with their reasoning, I am fascinated.

ChossidMom

Fri, Mar 13 2015, 9:42 am

In our circles the girls try to have a good profession and begin marriage by supporting a learning husband. When it's no longer viable the husband takes over. Said husband can also learn a trade while learning in yeshiva part time. Parents help as well till they are on their feet.

MagentaYenta

Fri, Mar 13 2015, 11:48 am

Frumdoc wrote:

I'm with you Frumdoc. I'm a planner and can't imagine how the 'someday' concept works. There are no times certain no fixed goals (and those goals can always be adjusted). How do people do it? It seems like inertia to me and I recognize my understanding of these situations needs to grow.

Frumdoc

Fri, Mar 13 2015, 1:08 pm

ChossidMom wrote:

So the girls plan, I hear that.

But what do your boys think? Is there some consideration of what will the future hold when they are getting married, having children, etc?

ChossidMom

Sat, Mar 14 2015, 6:56 pm

amother wrote:

chossidmom- what I'm trying to figure out is how can all parents help? If the parents have 10 kids or even 6 how do they help all those kids while they get on their feet?

Parents that can't help, don't. Everyone manages.
I can understand if you have questions about a kollel lifestyle. Here you're questioning the lifestyle of charedim who choose to work? Not sure I understand. What are you suggesting exactly (all you amazingly planned out mothers)? Are you deciding a target age that you want your boys to marry (like 25) and working backwards?

Let's face it. We are simply on different planets. If I look at the kehilla of our chassidus here in my city - all the men are working. One guy that comes to mind is married about a year with a baby and is currently studying computers. His wife is a math teacher. Chassidim marry their kids off young, by the way. Some guys get married at 19. Some of the other men in our shul are rebbis in cheder. Another one works and his wife does as well. Everyone seems to be managing fine.

Question - you folks that are asking me these questions - are you Charedi? Because it sounds like you're not and it's very hard to discuss this with people who have the MO mindset of finish high school, go to college, get your degree and then get married. We do things in a different order. We don't plan our lives around education. Marriage at a young age takes precedence over everything. If you're not Charedi, of course you can't relate.

Frumdoc

Sat, Mar 14 2015, 8:42 pm

I am, well, frum. I have family who are chareidi, who are MO, who are Reform, who are lifelong kollel learners, who are 5 year kollel learners, who are DL Hesder etc etc. So I don't really have any assumptions about the correct order or inclusion of various options in life, such as graduation from high school, or college, or business school, or whatever. Everyone does their own thing.

I am still interested in what your boys think about their lifelong self sufficiency, or if this is not a subject discussed at any point within your family.

I know some families where it seems that to even be considering some kind of financial future is verboten - this is not about some perceived proper order of secular or career orientated education and marriage, children etc, just about planning and the idea of taking on board financial adulthood.

I assume if there is intention to learn full time forever, one must also actively and personally plan how to fund this, and the options. I know some people who do so via savvy investments since they were teens, and are still going strong with limited time input required. But that took some planning and parental advice at a young age (and a smaller startup fund than you might imagine!).

I just wondered what your boys and their friends think, if they do, about what will be when they are all grown up and have a big family of their own, which will happen before they know it, especially if, as you say, your boys get married young.Or is it something that they and you consider doesn't need to be dealt with until it becomes a pressing need, which is also a valid choice?

amother

Sat, Mar 14 2015, 8:56 pm

ChossidMom wrote:

I didnt realize that chasidishe girls try to have good professions. Thats not exactly the case in my community of satmar as girls dont go to college. What chasidish community are you referring to when you say that?