Too much noise outside at bedtime

amother

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 11:50 pm

Barbara wrote:

I would like that cite. I've studied a lot about APD and other processing deficits, and never heard that.

Read "the brain that changes itself" available for free online.
It is brought up in a later chapter. Go back to the original studies. Learn about brain development on a cellular level. Learn how the different senses are developed in the brain during their sensitive periods, and what neurotransmitters cause the sensitive period to end. All the information you read will explain this mode of thought. I can explain off the top of my head, but I won't be using correct terminology and I won't do it justice.
Fascinating material!

Notsobusy

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 11:51 pm

amother wrote:

You lived right next to the PLAYGROUND. That is different!

But you said in your op,

Quote:

because this is the biggest area for boys to run, and playing across the street won't help much. Also, even if parents tell them to tone it down, boys will be boys...

so it's as if you live next door to the playground. It's not their fault the one person in the whole city whose kids go to sleep at six, picked a ground floor apartment, facing the biggest area to run, and has to keep her windows open.

amother

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 12:25 am

Barbara wrote:

The book is about neuroplasticity of the brain, and how it can be taught to heal itself after catastrophic injury. It's the theory behind the use of Fast ForWord for auditory issues.

But you're the one who is steadfastly refusing to use a white noise machine because it causes APD. Telling me to study brain development isn't supporting your position. Nor is citing a well known, but out of print book about a different subject, and saying that it's in there somewhere.

I've been living with processing deficit theories and therapies and everything else for 12 years. I've never heard your theory. So I am asking for more information.

Ok, I'll explain as best as I can without sources. It seems like you are well versed enough to understand where I am going without me using correct terminology.

When the brain is developing, after the baby is born, there are certain sensitive periods for different senses. For example, if a baby is born with cataracts that are not removed within the sensitive period, the baby will never be able see, because it was not exposed to site during the crucial sensitive period.
So too with sound. A baby has a sensitive period. If the brain is overwhelmed with sounds, during the sensitive period, the neurotransmitter that is responsible for ending the sensitive period may overflow in the brain, before the sense is completely developed, leading to a sort of apd.
Studies have shown that there are more reported cases of kids with learning disabilities where there is greater noise pollution.
Whether this is a real theory or not, I have yet to discover, yet, I do not want to be the cause of any processing disorders in my children.

Barbara

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 10:03 am

amother wrote:

When you're talking about a baby with cataracts, you're talking about the brain shutting off or failing to establish certain neural pathways because of corrupted information that it would otherwise receive. This happened to a close friend's son, BTW. Doidge, whom you cited earlier, would probably argue that it is always possible to re-establish the neural pathways. In the case of my friend's son, unfortunately, they were only able to partially re-establish it, after he had no use of the eye for 7 years.

I'm not sure what that has to do with using a fan to mute other sounds for 1/2 an hour or an hour at a time. Or why you think that a fan or white noise machine, used to mute other sounds, would be the type of noise pollution that might impact brain development.

Oddly enough, kids with APD are not desensitized to noise, as you would expect if your theory were correct. Instead, they are extremely sensitive to noise. Eg, we could never go to parades, fireworks, or anywhere with fire engines or sirens.

Here's an interesting article for you on white noise machines. https://www.sciencenews.org/bl.....noise conclusions? Not TOO LOUD. Not too long. But safe.

amother

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 10:14 am

OP, why can't your kids nap in the afternoon? Many 3-year-olds still need afternoon naps, and certainly most kids under that age do. What I got from your OP was that this schedule they're on is about your convenience- so what we're really talking about is your preference for an entirely kid-free evening over the need of neighbors' kids to play outside at a perfectly reasonable hour.

And I'll say this as someone who worked a rotating schedule (mix of night and day shifts) for over a year- I NEEDED to sleep at 6 pm so I could be awake for an 11pm-7am hospital shift, often after a 7am-3pm morning shift. I did not complain about kids playing at that hour in the building stairwell, because that was a reasonable hour for the level of noise they were making, because the vast majority of people are awake at that hour. We moved to a quieter area as soon as we could, but that was our responsibility.

Barbara

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 12:31 pm

Iymnok wrote:

Your toddler needs about 11-12 hours of sleep a night. Adjust their schedule to 7-7 you will have "jet lag " for a little, but it will be fine.
Did you ever think that your child is sensitive to sound because he only sleeps in silence? A noise machine for a half hour would be a huge favor for him.

If between ages 2 and 3, I'm seeing 10 to 11 hours a night, plus a nap of 1 to 2 hours. So that a toddler going to sleep at 6 would be expected to wake up between 4 and 5 am. YIKES!

http://www.parents.com/baby/sl.....uide/

gp2.0

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 3:13 pm

Ummm...if noise caused developmental delays or whatever, we'd see that people in warm climates who have fans or a/c running all day would be significantly more delayed than people in cooler climates...and that, you know, hasn't happened. Also, people living near airports, train stations and highways. Actually, all people living in cities. Right. We all know that everyone living in the noisy city is more delayed than people living in the quiet Midwest.

Common sense. Is there a study for that?

(The only outcome of that study that would make sense would be a child who has ALL their normal AWAKE interaction time replaced by white noise. Example: a child who spends all her days working in a factory.)

MagentaYenta

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 4:57 pm

Raisin wrote:

the clocks changing is a perfect opportunity for your kids to be moved onto a later schedule. Do you need to wake them up very early for some reason? None of my kids have ever been sleepy at 6pm.

My toddler now wakes up at 7:30am, naps from about 12-1:30 (sometimes later) and goes to bed at about 7:30/8pm. He's just not tired earlier, I wish he was!

If your kids do not nap now maybe they can take a short nap.

Typically I would be getting home at about 5:45 when DD was a toddler. If it was someone else's day to cook dinner we'd eat at about 6:15-6:30. Figure in some Mommy and me playtime and contact as well as bathing, and she'd be down between 8:30 and 9pm. She would get up between 7-and 7:30 when her father woke and have an hour nap in the afternoon about 3pm. We were flexible and not restricted to a schedule. If I kept a schedule with a 6pm bedtime, I'd likely would have no contact with the child while she was a toddler.

amother

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 5:57 pm

Woah people here can be harsh sometimes!
Just wanted to validate OP-
My kids go to sleep between 5:30 and 6:30. My friends' kids go to sleep this early as well. Nothing wrong with it.
About the noise-
I understand how you feel. We deal with lots of noise in our apartment as well. I do close the windows- otherwise we would all be up and I put a fan or AC on.
I think it's OK to ask the kids or their parents to go to their side instaed of playing on your side. But if they don't listen there's not much you can do about it.
Hope it all works out.

amother

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 6:14 pm

Very unpopular op here.
I read everything everyone had to say, and realized that a lot of people read what I wrote, but didn't understand my pov at all. Apparently, when you have older children, or work late hours, etc, and have never been in my situation, it's hard to see my point. I get it.
I will bite the bait even though I went to bed crying last night from the insensitivity displayed. You saw that I was just trying to see all sides, and I got attacked for bringing up other points, valid or not in your eyes.

So, here is my children's schedule:
7:00-7:30 wake up depending on the day
9:00 drop off at babysitter
They nap at the babysitter
3:45-4:00 pick up,and come home
4:00-4:30 supper
Play until bath and bedtime routine which starts at 5:45.
My kids are sleeping now, because its raining so there is nobody playing under my window.

When they don't get to bed by 6:15 the latest, they are up multiple times at night. Last night I was up half the night with them.

Regarding drowning out the noise, I will do my own research and come to my own conclusions-thank you for the suggestions.
I will still express my concerns to the boys and ask them to play elsewhere. There is nothing wrong with asking.

amother

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 6:37 pm

Barbara wrote:

In all honesty, I did not click on the link yet, but I would like to explain further.
The theory has many other components to it, and that is why I directed you further. You did bring up valid points and I would like to explain further. (Again without proper terminology, as I don't have time to look things up)
While the infant brain is developing, it has many, many more cells than a mature child brain. It was discovered that the function of this phenomenon is to precisely create the formation of the structures of the brain, based on outside stimuli.
Take an infant who's hearing is not fully developed. He is MORE sensitive to loud noises, triggering the Moro reflex! He does not start off LESS sensitive and develop sensitivity over time. The ability to ignore, or allow sounds to move to the subconscious, is a skill that gets developed over time. When it is fully developed, the specified neurotransmitter overflows the system and the "sensitive period" is shut off. If children are exposed too early to too many noises it may happen too early leading to apd or learning disabilities.
I don't have the sources in front of me, so if you would like to learn more, you would have to do your own research. There was a study done on children in an orphanage close to a factory. The children living on the floors closer to the noise had higher rates of apd and learning disability.

You are probably right about a noise machine used to drown out other noises, and I apreciate you pointing that out. I will look into it and make a decision.

amother

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 6:40 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

Valid points you brought up, see my above response to Barbara. If still unclear, I can try to clarify more. Again, I apologize for not bringing sources and just telling you to look into it, but I don't have them in front of me, and don't have time to go look everything up right now. When I do my research more in depth, I can post real sources if you would like.

Raisin

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 6:54 pm

amother wrote:

Wow. That is a lot of sleep! How do your kids sleep so much? Mine seem to function on a whole lot less. I do think your kids have a somewhat unusual sleeping pattern - most kids who go to sleep at 6pm also wake up very early.

BTW when I had only little kids I was a SAHM and my kids went to sleep at 7pm. Never 6. Now I struggle to get my toddler to sleep at 8. I try for earlier but nope, he's just not tired.

I do sympathise with you, but how would you like it if you had a neighbour who came round and asked that you keep your kids quiet from 4-6 pm every night? I'll bet you would find that hard.

Barbara

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 7:31 pm

OP, I'm sorry you were upset. But its not that I didn't get your point. Its that I strongly disagree.

I grew up in a row home, and live in an apartment. That means I know almost as much about the violent arguments that my best friend's parents had growing up as he does, but I pretend that I don't. It means that even though I had a migraine the other night, it would not have been appropriate for me to ask my next door neighbor to turn down her TV. Truth is it wasn't that loud, I could only hear it because I insisted everything in my apartment be utterly silent, and it was a reasonable hour. It means that I can't say a word to the teens who sometimes congregate in the back of my building at 9 pm, but I can at 1 am. And heaven help me, but sometimes I actually miss the bagpipe guy.

While I find your children's bedtimes odd, they are surely your right. But then, if your children need silence, you need to find a way for them to have it without telling others not to do things that are reasonable to do at 6 pm. You don't need to close your windows, or put on a fan, or white noise machine, or move your kids to another room, or anything else anyone suggested. But you cannot try to make the rest of the world be quiet at an hour when people are generally out and about.