Help me not go crazy at bedtime

amother

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 10:46 pm

My days are long and I don't sleep so great myself, so by the time it's kids bedtime I am very tired and low energy. Still, I consider myself a pretty OK parent and usually do well with any awake-time shtick (getting into pajamas shtick, brushing teeth shtick, story shtick, etc.) The problem is after they are in bed. By the time they're in bed I am ready to collapse. I just need a break, a nap, a something. But they just don't fall asleep! This is not daylight savings time news, this has been going on for as long as I can remember and maybe only got slightly worse the last couple of nights.

4 y/o should know by now that there is not much point in kvetching for anything after bed, as I historically never give anything. For drink she has a full sippy cup by her bed and can help herself. Bathroom can help herself. Music is playing, books read are over, books to read herself are right there and need no intervention. She is generally pretty good about this but she can lie in bed for 2 hours without falling asleep! Not every day but very often. Almost always more than an hour, often up to 2, usually on the longer end when other child is causing disturbances. So even though she's generally pretty good about staying in bed, of course it's hard for her when she is there for so long and not falling asleep. So yes, eventually many nights kvetches and stuff happen. Since I am so tired and exhausted and it's already been an hour since I put them to bed and felt ready for a break, I get snappy and irritable. This makes the kid feel bad (occasionally tears, usually just tension) does not help anyone sleep better and makes me feel rotten but I am soooo tired at this point I just don't know how to hold myself together!

Then there's the 2 y/o who is the one really driving me crazy. Sometimes if she took a nap she isn't even tired at bedtime, which I understand and let her play a while before making a serious attempt (though out of habit/routine she often wants to go to sleep at regular bedtime, which means I have to basically do everything twice for her, which definitely does not help my exhaustion and frustration) But let's skip that and just talk about when she is tired, whether that's at a normal time or later. She used to drive me crazy demanding to be held and then not falling asleep anyway for ages, waking herself up again and then asking to be held again until I lose my mind. I believe we had a thread here already maybe a month ago where the consensus seemed to be that I was spoiling her, and I felt I had no choice because she is so impossible and would scream for ages and make me and my 4-yo miserable (which happened every time I tried, she won every time and not because I am a wimp or a pushover but because she screams THAT loud and THAT long) Anyway a little over a week ago I decided to make a fresh attempt, did a lot of talking and storytelling about growing up and sleeping in your own crib and then getting a bed when you get bigger and how happy and proud everyone is and yadayada. She drank it all up and then decid Exploding anger

ed to fight crib time anyway. I upped the ante and brought out special new big stickers for little people who go to sleep in the crib by themselves. IT WORKED!!!! EUREKA!!!! HALLELUJAH!!!! It took the same 3 hours ( Exploding anger

) of my night but held the promise of a liberated future. There was some sadness but it was remedied with the reminder of the stickers. Repeated several nights, some sadness, reminder of stickers, bedtime started to go a little smoother and faster, I saw the light at the end of the tunnel. I was thinking that by the time the special sticker sheet got used up, sleeping in the crib would become the new normal and just another part of the routine.
But now we seem to be back at square one. She was worse than ever the last couple of nights. The stickers didn't help. She was definitely good and tired. The screaming was horrendous. The 4 y/o couldn't sleep.

And I am losing it. I am saying, thinking, and feeling things that are unhelpful. Of course she only gets more miserable when I start snapping at her. But I have nothing left to do! I am out of energy and out of ideas. She's crying hold me, hold me, ignoring her doesn't help and I literally do not have the strength left to pick her up. She gets more and more hysterical and I know from experience that that will never improve on its own, only gentle and positive/calming works for her, once she starts getting worked up she never winds down on her own, and I do mean never. Against my inclination I actually did CIO with my first DD (not hardcore CIO, I mean I let her cry herself to sleep when I felt she was being too spoiled and needed to learn to make it on her own. It worked. I trust myself. At least, I did then.) but for this child it would never work, she never runs out of steam. But what can I do when I am at the end of my rope, have zero energy, out of ideas, basic positive/gentle didn't work, everyone's kvetching and my nerves are shot?

Help. This is happening every night. I make it through the days OK but even after bedtime it just doesn't end and I turn into the wicked witch. I hate bedtime, I hate myself, and I hate being tired all the time. I have work that needs to get done when the kids are not around and if I can't even start it until 11 PM then when am I supposed to get to sleep? I can't remember life without chronic fatigue and headaches.

There is no DH in this picture. At least half the nights (including weekends) he works late (midnight type of late), and when he is home it's just worse - the kids are more hyper around him, and he fully believes in CIO no matter how miserable it makes me ad the kids.

BTW I have tried sleepy music, aromatherapy, pre-bedtime massages, routines, the works, nothing seems to make these kids go to sleep faster. I'm considering melatonin even though in theory I am against giving artificial hormones or stuff to little kids but I'm so desperate. I'm not even convinced it'll work, though.

pause

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 11:00 pm

While you train your 2 yr old to sleep in the crib, you need to place your 4 yr old elsewhere. Try another bedroom, if you have one, on a mattress in the dining room, in a sleeping bag in the hallway, whatever options you have.

When your 4 yr old comes out, ignore. Completely. I will sometimes just say: "You are in bed now. I can't hear you and I can't talk to you." Eventually the kid will make her way to her bed on her own.

Another method I have used in the past is when the kid comes out, I didn't let her back into bed. I put her onto the couch in the dining room with a blanket and left her there till she fell asleep, which was usually instantly. There is something about a bed that creates a resistance to sleep. On the couch, the kid is more likely to just relax and fall asleep. (It also depends on the kid obviously.)

Good Luck!

amother

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 11:10 pm

The 4 y/o is already in a separate room but the apartment is very very small and there is really no place to go. She'd be pretty happy to go to sleep in my bed, but that doesn't always work either, and then I'm sentenced to a lifetime of kvetching "Can I sleep in your bed again" which I am really not a fan of, especially since it doesn't always result in sleep. BTDT. Plus, that's the room where 2 y/o goes to sleep. Overall not such a great scene.

But anyway the 2 y/o is a much much bigger problem. Especially since she's often half the reason the 4 y/o can't fall asleep. sometimes when she has napped she can stay up until 4 y/o is sleeping, but even then if she screams loud enough 4 yo will wake. So that only really works if she's going to sleep some nice peaceful way, like me holding her exactly the way she wants for an hour. Recall please that I am feeling finished and wiped out by 7, I push myself until everyone is settled at 7:30ish, let's say 2yo napped and stays up until 9 by which time 4yo is asleep, that's already 2 hours AFTER I was ready to collapse and now she wants another hour or so of hands-on, patient, calm, loving maintenance! I just can't! I'm breaking! And then once she does fall asleep I am extra knocked out especially if it involved screaming or multiple attempts, and then I have work to get done and have to be up again at 8. And I'm not even getting housework done because they are needing so much hands-on this whole time, it's not like they're minding their own business not sleeping - 4 y/o often does mind her own business, tonight was difficult but usually she's pretty good. it's the 2yo impossible. can't leave her side. can't do anything or all heck breaks loose and I suffer much longer. YES I'VE TRIED, BLEEPIT. Stop telling me I'm spoiling her, I have tried everything to unspoil her and it just doesn't work! She literally screams forever and I lose my mind!

sheifelah

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 11:18 pm

http://m.barnesandnoble.com/w/.....44910

I just got this book to help me figure out sleeping and bed time for my 17 month old. I've seen it referenced before on different websites when I try googling what other parents do about bed time. I'm hoping something in the book will prove useful.

amother

Mon, Mar 09 2015, 11:32 pm

I have that book already. I could read it again but I don't remember it saying anything useful I haven't tried. Seemed like a lot of common sense, which is good because you don't think of everything yourself necessarily, but I really feel like I've tried everything and am never getting anywhere! More frustrated than ever because I thought I had something great going on last week, I was so firm even when she seemed to be chickening out I kept encouraging and persisting and everything... but the last few days that has not helped AT ALL.

chanie18

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 3:49 am

I hope the following ideas are helpful and not like throwing a rubber duck to a drowning man (as I tell DH when he picks up like 3 clics and thinks he helped me clean up the house)

I have a lot of bedtime stress because I work nights, so bedtime just gotta happen. DD was a really clingy type who used to take hours (literally) of rocking to fall asleep, up to the point where she was just too heavy to hold - then we progressed to hand holding - for hours. I was going mad and feeling really resentful.

I found that taking my own stress out of things was very useful in calming down the whole house. I realised if I'm hungry, bedtime does not go well, ditto for in need of early evening coffee. So I'm quite particular to have a snack and coffee before putting the kids to bed. Yes, even if that means they're finger painting with yoghurt on the kitchen table (or even each other) while I'm enjoying my drink - its worth it for everyone. Since you're not staying up, you probably shouldn't have a coffee, but maybe an instant hot chocolate or green tea would work well, something to fill you up a little so you're not tired, stressed and at the end of your tether before the kvetching even starts.

The other thing is I make sure they're really tired, not plopping exhausted but properly tired out. Meaning, I'm quite careful not to give them sugary foods, I take them outside and encourage them to run around a lot (even when its cold we go in snowsuits), they have a long splashy bath before bedtime (I wear my wellington boots), supper includes quite a bit of protein (I give carbs more in the morning), and they have a big drink of milk before bed. I try to choose bedtime stories that end "and they all fell fast asleep"....

Hatzlacha!!

little_mage

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 6:41 am

I know the feeling of being utterly exhausted by the kids bedtime. I'm sorry if I'm totally off base, but what does their electronic usage look like? We saw a huge bedtime improvement when we stopped allowing my son to use screens in the hour and a half before bedtime. We went, practically instantly, from an hour or two bouncing around his room to falling asleep generally within half an hour of me walking out the door. And he started mostly staying in the bed for that period too.

amother

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 10:47 am

I once read an interesting article (maybe on imamother? Don't remember)- and I found it very helpful
It basically explains that children don't get tired from the amount of hours being up, they just need to fill the amount of "learning space" every day to help his develooement
In other words, If a child hasn't learnt enough, and is still hungry for knowledge- she won't fall asleep
This space can be filled by reading them good quality stories- that they find interesting and enjoy, playing educational games- that they enjoy, drawing and coloring with them, while teaching them new art skills,...
Once this "space" is filled, they are more likely to feel satisfied at night and call it a day

amother

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 4:08 pm

Chanie18 (are you new here? prepare to be confused with Chani8!) your hand-holding kid sounds a lot like mine. Except mine is not willing to downgrade from holding her to holding hand, and she is HEAVY! I am physically breaking down from this too. At least I am allowed to sit now. I do make sure not to be hungry. I do still need to stay up longer but coffee is not my thing. I am just TIRED. No way to fix that before putting the kids to bed! Also stressed at having so much still to do. Also most of which can't be done with kids.

We too avoid sugary foods. Haven't had enough activity during the freezing winter days though I've tried to make up for it here and there. But the past few days were the WORST and those were davka the first days in months that we were able to spend out in the playground! I thought that would improve things, no such luck!

I find baths make mine more hyper so I don't do them right before bed.
I do feed proteins for supper, the 4 yo doesn't always eat it so I end up feeding some whole grains as well so she doesn't starve.
We do bedtime stories and cuddles and calming bedtime routines, they are all very calm and relaxed when they go to bed. I really feel like I have it under control! Until they start popping up 15 minutes later not sleepy anymore.

Electronics usage looks like zero, literally. Occasional ipad use in waiting room at doctor visits. Occasional looking at pictures of cousins that live far away. That's really all.

Not sure what to do with the learning space theory... I'm too tired to pack our afternoons with quality learning time... they both are in school until 3, then by the time we finish bathroom and washing up and snacks they have maybe an hour left to play before suppertime followed by bedtime. By which time I am collapsing.

gp2.0

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 4:21 pm

The 4 year old sleep habits sound OK - if she is up for a long time maybe her bedtime is a little too early? Or else the noise from the 2 year old is just keeping her up, which is really not her fault.

My 2 year old's sleep habits are also totally crazy right now. She went from an OK sleeper who started out in her own bed every night, and was on track to sleeping on her own all night long, to wanting to cuddle with ME all night long. She only falls asleep in my bed, if I nurse her. If I put her to sleep in her own bed, she's up 30-60 minutes later crying for me. This is a 180 turnaround from what she's been doing for almost 2 years. I was really upset at first but I have now resigned myself to not having an evening to myself until this phase passes. I don't do a bedtime routine with her at all. I do what I have to do all evening, and then I nurse or cuddle her to sleep in my bed whenever I'm ready to go to bed - 10, 11 or 12. It's not ideal but nothing else was working. At wits end

amother

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 4:25 pm

The 4-yo is not as bad as the 2 but definitely not OK - she takes up to TWO HOURS to fall asleep, regularly. This is even when the 2 yo is not making noise (I am holding her or letting her color/play quietly in different room) I do not think her bedtime is too early because she is always still tired in the morning.

gp2.0

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 4:27 pm

Is it possible the 4 year old is falling asleep on the way home from school?

amother

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 7:55 pm

We walk home! Yawn

miami85

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 8:52 pm

The only way I know that I didn't write this post is you say "she" and I have boys, both in toddler beds, and I do give melatonin (though if they are tired, I will try to let them fall asleep w/o it). I cannot get them onto a normal schedule--if they stay up late then they are tired the next day which means that they nap which means they stay up late again. Sometimes on Shabbos they won't nap and then go to sleep at a normal time, but then they wake up early on Sunday and take a nap and we're back to where we started. My 2 y/o will not take no for an answer as much as I try to say no he is SOOO stubborn that often I end up caving b/c I just want him to go to sleep already and the tantrum is keeping him awake and if my 4y/o is sleeping I don't want him to wake up.

amother

Tue, Mar 10 2015, 9:40 pm

Here we go again it is 9:30 and I have just snapped. Again. I put 4 yo to bed nearly 2 hours ago. She popped out many times, need this, that hurts, etc. I told her to lay quietly for a while and I will come see what she needs. This often works. Tonight she kept popping out. I think I am sensory or something because my brain just cannot handle the fact that I haven't had a second of quiet since morning. I just lose it from the constant demands for attention. I used to do broken record answers but now that is sending her into tantrums that I'm not answering her. I say if course I'm not answering you, you're supposed to be in bed, and she just melts down. I also did one round of laying with her, didn't help at all.

This is with 2 yo playing by herself. She seemed tired all afternoon but kept it together until bedtime because I didn't want to nap and then not fall asleep. Well suddenly at bedtime she's no longer tired at all. I sent her to play because after the last couple of nights I decided 4 yo needs a fair chance at sleep first. 2 hours and she's not even quiet yet. I can't do this, I don't have 4 hours a day to spend on bedtime especially when I'm already so worn out! I am barely functioning at work and behind on all kinds of life things, barely ever get to shower, and don't even talk to me about pesach. And I really feel it's all because of this, it takes up a huge amount of time, saps my patience and energy, and if I hear "please cover me" from the bedroom one ore time my brain might implode.

wife2

Wed, Mar 11 2015, 12:58 am

What time does your 2 yr old wake up in the morning? Do NOT let her take naps. Even if it takes all of your willpower to keep her up until 7:00 and you want a break in the afternoon, do NOT let her fall asleep as this seems to keep her up late. It is easier for you to watch 2 kids at once than 1 kid while 1 is napping and then 1 kid late at night when other is sleeping. If she does take a nap, KEEP IT UNDER AN HOUR AND NOT AFTER 3:00 PM.
If she is awake for 12 hours with no nap, she should be tired. Do you usually let her nap or even sleep for 30 minutes on couch after 3 pm could make her awake until very late.

amother

Wed, Mar 11 2015, 1:35 am

4 days a week 2 y/o is in nursery and takes a nap, but I am pretty sure rest time overall is never more than an hour and she must take time to settle, she is always wide awake and ready to go by 2:15. On home days she always requests a nap, but only fell asleep about half the time. When she slept she would sleep well for a couple of hours until I woke her up, usually from about 1-3, and then I wouldn't even put her to bed until later at night. On days when she didn't fall asleep, she would be really tired so I would try putting her to bed at the same time as 4 yo (7:30ish) and sometimes she would plop right off and sometimes very much not.

When I started to really lose my mind for what I feel must be the last time a few days ago, I informed her that her napping days are over. Sunday she didn't nap. Bedtime was h#ll anyway. Monday she didn't have school and I got stuck in traffic on an errand and she fell asleep in the car for what couldn't have been more than a half hour around 2:00 and bedtime was h#ll again. Tuesday she went to school, I imagine she did not have a high quality nap because she seemed really tired much of the afternoon, but all of a sudden at bedtime she was perky and lively and happy and bouncy and jumpy (and, alas, noisy) so I let her play. I got busy with something kind of intense and just let her go on hanging out even though I knew it was totally neglectful because she was super tired but I just had enough of putting people to sleep! Especially since 4 yo didn't fall asleep until around 10, with maintenance! So when she asked to be held I held her and there was a bunch of up and down but I basically let her go until she collapsed in my arms around 11:30. 11:30!!!

She wakes at 8, as does 4yo. Ideally. I am quite sure they are not getting enough sleep because they have been hard to wake lately and it has been quite a while since either of them woke of natural causes - as of a few months ago, DH never bothered setting an alarm clock, 4 yo was always up early. I did set my alarm but I left early morning care to DH and my alarm was later. Look at the time of this post you might understand why... When he started being late every morning, we got wise and now we both have our alarms set earlier and we actively wake the kids which is often not fun at all. It's crazy, though, even though we keep waking them up in the morning and they're perfectly tired and cranky, that still doesn't make them any sleepier at night! Auuuuugh!

Teacher texted today to say that my 4yo was acting up in school and said it was because she went to sleep late. Siiiiigh.

imaima

Wed, Mar 11 2015, 7:16 am

amother wrote:

It looks that the problem is you and not your children.
You have made it into a power struggle. They sense that you want them asleep and act up even more. If you send them away even with legitimate requests, hoping they fall asleep before their need is satisfied, they will learn to pester you until they have your active attention.

If I am exhausted before bedtime, I turn on videos for them for 30 min and lie down. When I have mastered energy to stand up and give of myself one last time to all the kids, they are asleep within 15 minutes.
What would happen if you just sit down in your bed and read a book with them, without actively doing something.
Or have them both in pyjamas in the big child's bed, listening to the story, let the older one drift off to sleep and continue with the younger one in the other room?
These are just suggestions, maybe they won't work for you, but you need to remove all the drama from your routine.

gp2.0

Wed, Mar 11 2015, 7:26 am

I remember now, at one point my 3-4 year old went through a growth phase or something where she was extremely tired, by 7:30-8 which had been her usual bedtime she was already overtired and wired and couldn't fall asleep despite being cranky beforehand.

Could you try moving her bedtime earlier? Say 6:30-7? Not permanently, just until she grows out of this phase?

Some kids are just pros at staying awake while there's action going on. Make sure there's no stimulation for the 4 year old if she gets out of bed. Hushed voices, dim or no lighting all through the house. It works for some.

gp2.0

Wed, Mar 11 2015, 7:32 am

Btw, did their sleeping patterns get worse after the time change? Because that's totally normal. I wish they'd stop the practice altogether.