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Please answer my stupid question about vaccination
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amother


 

Post Tue, Mar 10 2015, 2:58 pm
So I'm not well researched/educated in the subject. However I do firmly believe in vaccination because that is what is the right thing to do according to DRs or professionals, and I am not one so I follow the experts.

My best friend on the other hand does not vaccinate and it really bothers me, for the sake of her children and other's health.

But can you please explain to me, how is not vaccinating harmful to those of us who do vaccinate? If we are protected then there is nothing to worry about. Is all the concern about those with low immunity or babies not yet vaccinated/elderly etc? Is this the whole concern? I'm not clear?

But if everyone did have the vaccine, then surely the diseases would die out and there'd be no need for these vaccines in the year to come?

Also does someone who doesn't vaccinate warn everyone that they don't in case they are around someone vulnerable?

TIA
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Hashem_Yaazor




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 10 2015, 3:07 pm
A lot of the concern is for those who have weakened immune systems/can't be vaccinated, but there is some fear that vaccines are not 100% effective and your child may be in that percentage that didn't gain immunity properly.

Diseases have cycles, and there is a difference between bacterial and viral illnesses. In fact, a lot of diseases did disappear without vaccination, but that's another story. Some things are not expected to actually disappear and that is not the purpose of the vaccination campaigns for those illnesses.

Many of the things we vaccinate for can be transmitted by vaccinated individuals even if they don't appear symptomatic.

Most diseases that one is susceptible to are not currently being carried by someone not vaccinated.

And yes, that was very simplistic and in a nutshell, but it's way too big a topic to go into detail for each and every vaccine and disease Wink
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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 10 2015, 3:16 pm
Well I'm an old lady so I'm vulnerable. If I have visitors, they are bringing stuff in on their clothes and hair and hands and what they are carrying such as presents and and purchases from stores. You can't hide.

If one of them admired a neighbor's baby before coming to see me, that baby was too young to vaccinate, and may be harboring something his parents won't know about until next week. Because their neighbors, like your friend, don't vaccinate. But they got a bit of it on them. Now they are in my house. You can't hide.

People who create reservoirs of useful hosts, meaning useful to the diseases, provide opportunities for the disease to stay in existence and also to mutate into new strains that the vaccines may not protect against. Useful hosts are people who are not vaccinated. They may get the disease and survive. Of course they will have pain, perhaps lifetime organ damage, perhaps facial scarring, but they have also given the disease a chance to change. Because it simply existed, inside them.

Yes, with a lot of vaccinating, diseases do indeed almost die out, but nature is very flexible and wily, and there are always exceptions. There are always a few people who do NOT develop immunity the way they are supposed to, because there is variety in nature.

It is probable you have old people and babies in your family someplace.

"Old" might mean fifty years old in this context. You don't have to be geriatric to have your childhood vaccines worn off. I have no idea about precise ages however. I am not a professional in this field of any kind.

One assumes you aren't still having babies? Your friend, her kids, even mail from her, would not be good to be around, if you are.

If I knew that you had a best friend who didn't vaccinate, I would be happy to be your friend on Imamother but you would not be allowed into my house in person. No way, no how.

I like being alive, am widely revered, and need to keep dishing out priceless advice for some time longer.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 10 2015, 3:25 pm
The big concern is indeed babies, elderly people, and those who can't get vaccinated (for instance people going through chemo).

Also, again, not trying to enter into more vaccine fights, but IF an illness is eradicated (or significantly reduced in a certain part of the world), then no one has to vaccinate (or the people in that part of the world don't).

For instance: smallpox. Everyone used to be vaccinated -- people just a few years older than me have the scar on their arms. Then the WHO announced it was eradicated. Now nobody has to be vaccinated for it.

Similarly, people in the Western world are not typically vaccinated for TB. It's not considered a threat here.

So, if everybody follows the vaccine schedule, then hopefully the illness can be defeated altogether. Then we can all stop vaccinating. No, it's not possible for every illness. But sometimes it is.
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amother


 

Post Tue, Mar 10 2015, 3:38 pm
OP here, thanks for responses. So there is also a risk to ourselves and kids that we aren't quite immune despite having the vaccine.

I am young (24) so yes having babies still bH but my youngest is 13 months and now fully vaccinated. So would a sensible person keep away from my best friend just in case??

And I asked previously, should unvaccinated people announce their situation wherever they go?
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 10 2015, 3:40 pm
http://danamccaffery.com/openletter.html
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amother


 

Post Tue, Mar 10 2015, 4:01 pm
I've had the MMR shot 3 times (standard is twice) and I still don't have rubella antibodies. I'm terrified of leaving the house, even to go to the doctor, when I'm in my first trimester.
If you were my friend, and I found out you had a good friend who didn't vaccinate, I would drop you like hotcakes. No friendship or social niceties are worth my child's health.
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Dandelion1




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 10 2015, 4:09 pm
So terribly sad....
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mommyla




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 10 2015, 4:13 pm
Barbara wrote:
http://danamccaffery.com/openletter.html


This made me cry. The end is just written so heartbreakingly. Poor baby.
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Hashem_Yaazor




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 10 2015, 6:03 pm
While this is sad, remember that pertussis is easily spread by VACCINATED individuals. And it's not one of those diseases that can be eradicated even with a high vaccination rate. Sad
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chaiz




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 10 2015, 6:11 pm
Hashem_Yaazor wrote:
While this is sad, remember that pertussis is easily spread by VACCINATED individuals. And it's not one of those diseases that can be eradicated even with a high vaccination rate. Sad


How is pertussis spread by vaccinated individuals? And what is the source for your statement?
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 10 2015, 6:16 pm
Hashem_Yaazor wrote:
While this is sad, remember that pertussis is easily spread by VACCINATED individuals. And it's not one of those diseases that can be eradicated even with a high vaccination rate. Sad


Japan. In 1974, about 80% of Japanese children were getting pertussis (whooping cough) vaccine. That year there were only 393 cases of whooping cough in the entire country, and not a single pertussis-related death. Then immunization rates began to drop, until only about 10% of children were being vaccinated. In 1979, more than 13,000 people got whooping cough and 41 died. When routine vaccination was resumed, the disease numbers dropped again.

Source: CDC
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amother


 

Post Tue, Mar 10 2015, 6:30 pm
Barbara wrote:
http://danamccaffery.com/openletter.html



That is so heartbreaking and sad. That poor family. Sad


But please remember the flip side, many babies have died due to receiving vaccines. Sad

All we can do as parents is make the best, most informed decision we can possibly make (in the case of vaccines that means reading and researching BOTH sides of the debate) and daven to Hashem that He should help us and protect our children.
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amother


 

Post Tue, Mar 10 2015, 7:02 pm
Hashem_Yaazor wrote:
While this is sad, remember that pertussis is easily spread by VACCINATED individuals. And it's not one of those diseases that can be eradicated even with a high vaccination rate. Sad


Pertussis is not easily spread by vaccinated people. Monkeys immunized with aP were susceptible to colonization especially as immunity to pertussis wained. We live in first world countries where pertussis is BH not everywhere. Infection easily spreads pertussis. Colonization can probably occur in humans and therefore spread is possible. A spread from colonization importantly is not the same as spread from infection. They have very different transmissible rates although completely possible. So, to say it is easily spread is a jump.

Yes, aP needs improvements and there is work ongoing.

But, the reason whole cell was exchanged for acellular was because of an unacceptably high reatogenic responses.

Anyway, I'm staying out of this renewed debate. Just a comment that people have told me. I think a study was misinterpreted.
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Hashem_Yaazor




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 10 2015, 7:37 pm
Barbara wrote:
Japan. In 1974, about 80% of Japanese children were getting pertussis (whooping cough) vaccine. That year there were only 393 cases of whooping cough in the entire country, and not a single pertussis-related death. Then immunization rates began to drop, until only about 10% of children were being vaccinated. In 1979, more than 13,000 people got whooping cough and 41 died. When routine vaccination was resumed, the disease numbers dropped again.

Source: CDC

It provides individual protection. What you are saying doesn't contradict anything I wrote.
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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 10 2015, 8:57 pm
Today it's one world. Everybody goes everywhere now.

While there are hot spots, and areas of greater and lesser activity of this or that disease, you can't say anymore "well I don't know anybody from THERE. I never go THERE. So I'm ok." No, stuff comes to you, now.
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Scrabble123




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 10 2015, 9:02 pm
amother wrote:
I've had the MMR shot 3 times (standard is twice) and I still don't have rubella antibodies. I'm terrified of leaving the house, even to go to the doctor, when I'm in my first trimester.
If you were my friend, and I found out you had a good friend who didn't vaccinate, I would drop you like hotcakes. No friendship or social niceties are worth my child's health.


Sometimes, the immune response generated by vaccination is large enough to protect you from infection, but still too small to be accurately tested for via blood tests looking for the antibodies. It may be that you are one of the small number of individuals who do not develop the necessary immune response to be fully protected, but it also likely that you are immune, but that the tests are not sensitive to pick up that immunity (you can discuss it with your doctor)
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 10 2015, 9:10 pm
sequoia wrote:
The big concern is indeed babies, elderly people, and those who can't get vaccinated (for instance people going through chemo).

Also, again, not trying to enter into more vaccine fights, but IF an illness is eradicated (or significantly reduced in a certain part of the world), then no one has to vaccinate (or the people in that part of the world don't).

For instance: smallpox. Everyone used to be vaccinated -- people just a few years older than me have the scar on their arms. Then the WHO announced it was eradicated. Now nobody has to be vaccinated for it.

Similarly, people in the Western world are not typically vaccinated for TB. It's not considered a threat here.

So, if everybody follows the vaccine schedule, then hopefully the illness can be defeated altogether. Then we can all stop vaccinating. No, it's not possible for every illness. But sometimes it is.


I was one of the last kids with a small pox vaccine scar Smile
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black sheep




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 10 2015, 9:57 pm
pertussis is not easily spread by vaccinated people. pertussis can be spread from a recently vaccinated individual (for about two weeks after vaccination) to an immunocompromised person (I.e. someone going through chemo.) but other than that vaccinated individuals do not spread the diseases they were vaccinated against. the anti-vax propogandists misuse the fact that it can be passed very shortly after vaccination and only to immumocompromised people.

HY, Barbara's post shows how vaccination reduced the spread of the disease.


Last edited by black sheep on Tue, Mar 10 2015, 11:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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acccdac




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 10 2015, 9:59 pm
People who dont vaccinate dont usually go around announcing or "warning" people that they dont vaccinate.

I am a teacher, I think it should be required by law for the school to allow teachers to know that there are unvaccinated student's in their class. I dont think it's necessary for the teacher to know WHO just that there are or arent (and possibly which) this way she can make an informed decision if she wants to work in that environment.

I have a 10 month old at home. I believe that one of my current students had pertussis. I know that I am vaccinated and I know that my child is not coming into my classroom so I knew that I was probably safe even if my unprofessional diagnosis was correct. I mentioned it in passing to my doctor and he said that my baby is safe not because I couldnt bring it home but because she is 10 months and has had 3 shots already. It would be highly unlikely for me to bring home pertussis, but still a possibility.

I consider my job a petri dish. I know that I have a higher risk of getting the flu than a secretary in an accounting office. I therefore have made the decision to get the flu shot knowing that most people dont give it and its not part of the "regular vaccine schedule". However, if measles were going around my school I WOULD make an appointment to see if my antibodies are still working and get a new shot if necessary.
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