Myths about your (and DH's) profession

saw50st8

Tue, Mar 17 2015, 7:46 am

amother wrote:

Yes, Barbara had it right. My DH is a Rav and will happily attend to people's emergency type calls and crises. But it drives me nuts when he gets calls that can be handled during more regular business hours.

I am a lawyer and everyone assumes I am an expert in all areas of law when in fact I am very specialized. I have gotten good at saying "I don't know about x, but I know enough to tell you that you need to find an attorney who does specialize in that area." It especially irks me when people ask me for legal advice on Shabbos.

Does your husband have a daytime job? Our Rabbi does. He can't answer questions while teaching!

I'm not saying people shouldn't have boundaries, but your initial post sounded to me like you were saying people shouldn't bother him during the week at all.

amother

Tue, Mar 17 2015, 9:04 am

saw50st8 wrote:

I am the original amother with a rabbi husband. Yes, my husband teaches too, but most schools don't go past 4pm. He is also not teaching the whole day. People can call him the entire afternoon. No need to call with a non urgent question late in the evening, especially if it will be a long call.

Part of the issue is my husband is a nice guy who hates saying no. People should remember nice guys have wives and children who may be suffering.

saw50st8

Tue, Mar 17 2015, 11:18 am

amother wrote:

Interesting. I never like to call in the late afternoon because I would be disturbing family time (kids coming home, homework, dinner etc). Then again, I don't often bug the Rabbi at all :-)

Has your husband set aside standard hours for people to call and visit to deal with issues? That's what most Rabbis I know do.

amother

Tue, Mar 17 2015, 12:01 pm

I am also a PA. I work in the Women's Health field. For some reason, people seem to think that after dealing with V@g!n@s all day for 10+ hours, I want to come home and hear all about theirs. I work long, exhausting days 5 days a week in an extremely draining field. I do like what I do, however, when I walk into my house at dinner time and have to help the big kids with homework, feed and care for a baby and make a healthy dinner (b"h for all that), the last thing I want to deal with are calls/texts from family and friends regarding their female problems or pregnancy issues. If you have a pregnancy concern that bothers you that much at 6pm, call your Ob/GYN's after hours, not me. And certainly don't call me to tell me you're bleeding or contracting. Really? What am I going to do from my kitchen? Overall, when done in a way that is respectful of boundaries, I don't mind helping someone out with advice. It's the acute emergency calls or the inappropriate questions at really bad times that I mind. Don't mean to come across too harshly, just venting because I often want to say all of the above but I'm too much of a chicken to do so. Posting as amother because I feel there are too many identifying factors and don't want to give my screen name away.

Fox

Tue, Mar 17 2015, 1:02 pm

My first inclination was to join in the venting. I can echo similar complaints from over the years (the people who badger OOTBubby for help with MS Word apparently call me immediately afterward to ask me questions about Hebrew fonts and page layout).

But, really, people wanting free services or making unknowledgable comments are very much in the minority in my life, and usually such behavior is the tip of the social awkwardness iceberg with these people.

That could be because I'm not exactly a social butterfly and don't have a large extended family of kibbitzers who know too little about too much.

However, if anything, I observe the opposite problem more frequently:

Let's say I know I need a lawyer, but I'm not sure what kind of lawyer I need or what that type of lawyer is properly called. My Internet searches lead to lots of contradictory information. Everyone suggests I call "Mindy," who will surely help me. I call Mindy, whom I know slightly, with some trepidation, and start to explain that I need to find a lawyer to help with XYZ, but that I . . .

The rest of my sentence never leaves my mouth. "I'm a bankruptcy lawyer; I don't do trusts," Mindy barks at me.

"Yes, I know," I start, but Mindy isn't listening to what I really want from *her* -- namely, the official name of the kind of lawyer I need and/or any possible referrals to someone who either does the kind of work I need or would know others who do.

So I make my apologies and get off the phone, thoroughly cowed. And Mindy no doubt chalks me up as another freeloader, and a stupid one at that.

Is it really so painful to take 30 seconds to explain to someone that I'm not really familiar with configuring computer networks; that my advice might do more harm than good; that they want someone called a "network technician" or "specialist"; and give them the name of somebody who does that kind of work or knows those who do?

Yes, the calls usually come at the worst possible time; yes, they can be brain-numbingly similar. But how is helping someone find the professional help they need any less of a chesed than taking a meal to a new mother or driving little old ladies to the doctor? In fact, it's about the easiest form of chesed I can do, since it doesn't require me to bestir myself in the slightest.

When someone asks me about something only vaguely related to my actual professional expertise, I usually interpret it as, "I need help but I don't know where to begin to find it" rather than "I want you to do something for free." Perhaps I live a charmed life, but I'm rarely disappointed in my assumptions.

morah

Tue, Mar 17 2015, 1:35 pm

amother wrote:

I teach in a Jewish high school, and people think it's great that I work so part-time and I'm making $35 an hour. Hello? That's only for the time I'm in class. No one is paying me for travel time, babysitting, marking time, preparing, PTA, making up modified tests, speaking to tutors, etc. In addition, I don't get paid in the summer nor maternity leave.

Midterms and finals, wow, you have so much time off!!! But no one knows about the stack of papers I come home with that need to be marked, the end-of-term averages that need to be calculated, other report card marks such as general behaviour, and comments I need to do. If my final is given on the last day, I need to do all that in an extremely short time span. So, yes, of course, I'm glad to have a week of Hebrew finals before where I am free, but during all that time, I'm busy fretting about the mountain of work that's headed my way and I cannot do anything in advance to alleviate it!!!

Me too, and yes to all of this! While I don't have anyone trying to get free services from me, I deal with comments that mostly imply that I don't work all that hard or have some sort of cushy job. Oh, and no, teachers don't get free tuition. Maybe that was true awhile ago, but it's not true now, not in my school nor in any of the schools I have friends at. The school I teach in offers a staff discount of 15%. That is very nice, but 15% off a very large number is still a very large number. I am sending my kids to more RW schools anyway for hashkafic reasons, and full tuition is still multi-thousands of dollars less than tuition at my school WITH the staff discount.

ora_43

Tue, Mar 17 2015, 3:41 pm

amother wrote:

why do you say it is hard? I hear a pakid saad, the highest authority social worker, basically has the right to remove children on her own decision. no court order neccessary.
and the foster homes are in other countries. I hear most kids removed from homes in israel are placed in one of the hundreds of dorm houses around the country, and not in foster care. and a recent article in yisrael hayom , shabbos edition, spoke about the horrid conditions and neglect in one of these homes.
and kids removed from homes, once given over to a final adoption, are given in closed adoptions, meaning no contact with family, family wont even know where kid is.
this is what I have heard from someone in the field
where do you base wat you say on? ur assuming this is the state of things,or u kno for a fact?

With apologies for going wildly off topic:
This is wrong on a lot of levels.

The vast majority of social workers aren't pekidei sa'ad.

A pakid sa'ad gets involved when someone asks them to. IOW it's by definition not "on her own decision," it's confirming previous assessments. If a pakid sa'ad is taking kids out of their home against the parents' will, it's because a crime has been committed, so police are involved too (even if charges aren't filed, police are involved in removing children when that happens). The pakid sa'ad has a limited period of time (up to one month with a court order) to bring the case before a court.

Kids are often referred to dorm houses with parental consent. It's not like every child in a dorm house was taken from their home by a social worker, not even close.

My experience has been of meeting kids who were removed from home (whether with consent or without) for good reason. Those in dorm houses were reasonably happy there, although I wouldn't be surprised if there are some horrible dorm houses, too.

Before a child could be adopted without their parents' consent a lot of things would have to happen. Committees would have to discuss the case, for example. A judge would need to rule on it. It wouldn't be just one person. I'm not saying the process always yields ideal results or anything, just that there are lots of people involved.

ora_43

Tue, Mar 17 2015, 3:50 pm

amother wrote:

so ur saying they don't basically kidnap kids out of their homes? cuz just recently someone was relling me that because of a socialistic outlook, social workers in israel will take kids out of homes unjustifiably, and then they are placed in dorms where neglect and abuse is rampant. wats the truth on this?
and if it is so low paying why do you go for it? because it is a helping people carrer?
because same person claims social workers cant really help people....
wats the truth? seriously want to know...

And now slightly more on topic - this is a big myth about social workers in general, as previous posters said.

I have several friends and acquaintances who are social workers, and not a single one is involved in taking kids out of their homes. One works with needy families, three work with mentally ill adults, one arranges volunteering on a neighborhood level, like setting up volunteers with lonely elderly people, two work in nursing homes, one provides oversight/coordination for a company that matches sick elderly people with full-time carers, one does one-on-one therapy with adults, and one handles questions from the public about benefits.

Saying "social workers" take kids out of homes is like saying doctors do brain surgery. It's true that the people who do brain surgery are doctors (one hopes), but it'd be silly to ask a random med student how they feel about doing brain surgery.

mirah2

Tue, Mar 17 2015, 7:53 pm

Bringing more back on topic LOL

I do company secretarial work (working towards qualification with the ICSA here in the UK). Those who are lawyers or accountants in the UK will generally know what this is, but those who don't assume I just do secretarial work - as in, typing and administration. Um, heck no. I wouldn't need to have a law degree and be taking further exams in accountancy, governance and business strategy to do that!

Whenever I have to say 'what I do' (especially at the Shabbat table), I now have a short spiel about 'being a cross between a lawyer and an accountant who specialises in company law and making sure businesses comply with the Companies Act'. Once I really couldn't be bothered to do this so just said - 'I'm a company secretary. If you don't know what that is, google it after Shabbat'. Twisted Evil

As for people asking you to do stuff...well, I agree with the poster that sometimes it could just be a question of their not knowing who to ask and trying to figure out next steps. Part of my job is handling enquiries from members of the public, and quite often I have to steer them by saying 'you really need to get advice from an accountant/solicitor before coming to us, these are the options but we can't tell you which one is best for you' (my firm is primarily a formations agent so we're not meant to give professional advice). Sometimes I'm not convinced they listen, but sometimes they actually seem to find it helpful to have us tell them who to talk to...

amother

Tue, Mar 17 2015, 10:06 pm

amother wrote:

I'm the other PA. I so badly wish to work in your field!! Not many openings for obgyn PAs where I live. Thankfully I rarely get v@g!n@ questions from friends. I think they'd be too embarrassed to tell me. Or maybe they don't realize I do basic gyn too (in ER setting).

amother

Wed, Mar 18 2015, 2:32 pm

Fox wrote:

I am the poster from the first page with people wanting free legal advice. You are the rare person. There is no reason not to open up the dialogue with the fact you are asking for a referral. I am sure you will get a better reception if you ask for the referral right off.

I have found people to be persistent with not wanting to pay for the service. They don't want to be pushed off on someone they have to pay when they have a friend/relative with the who passed the bar they can sponge off. No matter how clearly I state it is not my field they want the free services.

Fox

Wed, Mar 18 2015, 3:07 pm

amother wrote:

The legal referral example was just that -- an example. However, in similar situations I've not had time to get out a single sentence, and explaining that you're looking for a referral doesn't do any good if the person at the end of the phone line isn't really listening.

As I said, I probably live a charmed life. For starters, I live in the Midwest, where people tend to be a tad less aggressive, thus engendering less battle fatigue on the parts of doctors, lawyers, and Indian chiefs.

And that's why I see it as somewhat of a vicious cycle. People routinely pester professionals for free services or advice, thus leading the professionals to assume the worst before they pick up their phones. Sometimes making a single small change in the "dance" nets big results.

I do agree that there will always be a minority who take persistence to an unbelievable level in their efforts to enlist free and/or easy help.

But they're the same people who try to pressure us into doing their Internet shopping for them; babysitting their children after school every day; or evacuating our homes in favor of their Yom Tov guests.

Sometimes they have problematic social skills. Sometimes they're narcissistic. Sometimes they are kind-hearted and have difficulty distinguishing a chesed from a business transaction. Sometimes they're just cheapskates. Whatever the reason, all you can do is repeat that you're unable to help them until they give up or their phone batteries die.

amother

Wed, Mar 18 2015, 3:21 pm

Fox wrote:

I almost always know who is calling me before I pick up the phone. I either have caller ID or secretary who screens. I don't take calls from crazies. If someone is assuming the worst, they won't pick up the call. You have an opportunity to state the reason for your call initially. If someone goes into their whole story before asking for a referral, I agree the professional may no longer be listening. If you are organized and clearly state that you are calling for a referral then I think you will have much better results. Remember it benefits the professional to make the referral.

Lawyers have organized focused thoughts and when someone tells a story, they want to get to the point to make a decision.

Chayalle

Wed, Mar 18 2015, 3:34 pm

vicki wrote:

I "work in computers". My Dad might see any ad from looking for a "network specialist" (not my field) to a database manager (not my field) or technical support (not my field) and wonder why I don't send out my resume.
Meanwhile B"H I have a fine job in .NET programming. Love you, Dad.

I also "work in computers". I don't fix computers. I'm also not a personal internet shopper.

I have family members that think that I have all the time in the world to order their Yom Tov clothes, shoes, pay their bills, and research info for them. If they want a particular designer item at an unheard-of price, they don't believe I cannot find it for them. If someone they know claims to have gotten a deal, I must know how to get the same, and I have all the time in the world to do so.

They don't realize that I work during work hours....and after work my other job begins. You know, supper, laundry, homework, baths, and bedtime.....

Ruchel

Wed, Mar 18 2015, 3:38 pm

France cruelly lacks foster homes as inFAMILIES and not all are good, not all commit to not sending you back to the "orphanage" type thing, and for a Jewish kid forget basic Yiddishkeit until 18. There are a handful of Jewish structures and families but it's absolutely not enough, too long...

It's also easier to show you're active and useful by going after families that aren't scary and crazy, those ones, what social assistant wants to go after??

Quote:

I hear most kids removed from homes in israel are placed in one of the hundreds of dorm houses around the country, and not in foster care.

Just our adoptions are from parents who want it and very rarely older kids who still have living parents (but also they are all secret).

That said we report/denounce/tattle over people much less, here, than what I read on Imamother ("would you report for goat milk" or wtv it was).

amother

Wed, Mar 18 2015, 3:49 pm

amother wrote:

I find it irritating when people get cheap on certain things and then without care spend on others. Like they'll balk at paying $10 more (total of $50) to style their wig dressy but in the next sentence say how they're paying $75 to do their face and $65 to do each of their girls' hair and renting dresses for $500 a piece. And I'm thinking to myself ok...these other stuff your spending on is for one night and you have no issue but your wig which will last you 6 weeks the 10 bucks is an issue. Hmm.
I guess human nature is to try to get a bargain where you can.

or they want to pay cheap and then send a car service to bring an pick up

Fox

Wed, Mar 18 2015, 3:51 pm

amother wrote:

I will try to remember that I'm under no obligation to actively listen and respond to other human beings the next time I get a call from a crazy lawyer who wants to tell me the whole (organized!) story of what happened to his/her computer; doesn't know his/her IP address and whether it's static or dynamic; and doesn't know what kind of firewall is in place.

There's an element of arrogance and elitism that I'm sure you're not intending, but is nonetheless coming through. To my knowledge, no state bar refuses admission to people who lack social skills; are inappropriately aggressive; or master manipulators. Without contributing to unfortunate stereotypes, there are some who would say that those characteristics are actually advantageous to lawyers.

So unpleasantly aggressive lawyers badger plumbers; cheapskate plumbers badger network administrators; socially inept network administrators badger health care workers; and manipulative health care workers badger lawyers. There's room for everyone to act like a jerk!

I suppose the problem of "crazies" calling all the time might be a legitimate issue for someone whose name is very well known and who is in the public eye. That's one of the problems with even a small amount of fame. But for most of us, the amount of time needed to listen to the problems of another Jew and possibly refer him/her to someone who could be helpful -- and explain what typical costs would be -- is far less than we spend noodling around on Imamother.