Lessons of crime and punishments

amother

Sun, Mar 15 2015, 3:58 pm

Is it more of a crime that chasidishe boys are not getting a proper secular eduaction so that they wouldnt have to struggle as adults? Read an excerpt from.Shulem Deen's memoir. What do you think about it?

http://forward.com/articles/21.....yesh/

MagentaYenta

Sun, Mar 15 2015, 4:00 pm

amother wrote:

I just had it delivered to my Kindle. I read his blog and much of what he writes in the Forward. Without his voice, folks on the outside wouldn't know some of what is going on there. Even non Jewish news sources hardly cover some these issues.

amother

Sun, Mar 15 2015, 4:09 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

The thing is, people are questioning how credible he his. I havent read the book yet but from what I understand, his parents werent really Sqver and it was Deen himself who wanted to go to Sqver. So was he treated like an outsider? Does he really have an inside view of what Sqver is all about? (These are not my questions. I havent read the book yet so Ill wont comment on this until I do). Cant wait to read it, its supposed to be amazing.

MagentaYenta

Sun, Mar 15 2015, 4:26 pm

amother wrote:

Yes the tribe does circle the wagons every time a book comes out that doesn't agree with the dominant paradigm. It's human nature.

Whether he was ever accepted is not an issue, it's splitting a hair, and again letting the dominant paradigm control the message. If he's not determined to be a true Jew™, they think they can invalidate the message. Factually in closed community of the skver few will ever see a single page of this book and few if any will admit to even reading the forward.

amother

Sun, Mar 15 2015, 5:04 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

I just find it interesting that the two ex-chasidim who wrote memoirs (Feldman and Deen) are both from non-traditional chasidishe backgrounds. Deens father is a bal teshuva who died when Deen was a young teenager and Feldmans mother did not grow up chasidish and left the satmar community after having children leaving Feldman behind. So perhaps there is some validity to the fact that they (Deen and Feldman) were outsiders and struggled as a result.

amother

Sun, Mar 15 2015, 5:09 pm

amother wrote:

Also Leah Vincent, who had a yeshivish family in a rather modern community, and who had issues that had nothing to do with Judaism. I guess the books will wind up coming from people who have complex backgrounds. Or maybe we all have our own complexities.

MagentaYenta

Sun, Mar 15 2015, 5:09 pm

amother wrote:

Two out of 27 books published in one year about folks choosing to leave branches of the Jewish faith. But I get your point. I would suggest they had thinking minds that hadn't been fully closed. Cognitive dissonance effects different people differently.

amother

Sun, Mar 15 2015, 5:20 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

There are 27 memoirs of people going Otd? Im only familiar with four--Feldman, Vincent, Deen, and Asher. Can you please list the rest? Thanks

MagentaYenta

Sun, Mar 15 2015, 5:27 pm

amother wrote:

There are 27 memoirs of people going Otd? Im only familiar with four--Feldman, Vincent, Deen, and Asher. Can you please list the rest? Thanks

I don't have a list handy, I read it in Harpers a few months back. Amazon probably has a list if you search under subject. The NYT also had an article about OTD books being a money maker for the publishers and had a list as well IIRC. The subject has gotten lot's of press. It's no different than the rash of 'I left polygamy' books published by xMormon women a few years back. Once the subject makes the national press (and KY as well as other Frum scandals are doing just that) the public gets interested in a subject and people write about it.

ETA: Some of these books may be listed as fiction while the authors maintain they are biographical in nature.

amother

Sun, Mar 15 2015, 5:51 pm

amother wrote:

I focused on the chasidishe authors since Im chasidish and know and understand the chasidishe world. The fact that Vincent went to a school were the other girls had boyfriends and used drugs already places her on a very different level than say Feldman as that would never be allowed in Satmar. But you're right, we are all complex and im sure we all have a "behind closed doors" story to tell regardless of which community we grew up in.

Maya

Sun, Mar 15 2015, 8:10 pm

I cannot read this article as I understand it describes beatings and punishments meted out to the boys of Chassidish chedarim and yeshivahs, and I can't let myself be triggered. My husband and brothers and every Chassidish person we know suffered through schooling like this, and tens of thousands of children are suffering this right now, today and tomorrow and the day after. It breaks my heart and enrages me so that I cannot allow myself to think about this.

I firmly believe there is a special place in hell for all these "teachers" and "administrators" and "rabbbanim" reshaim who are allowing this to continue.

Another who is questioning his credibility, people like you are part of those who allow this to continue, by casting shadows of doubt and minimizing the severity of such issues. This is on your head too.

amother

Sun, Mar 15 2015, 8:12 pm

Maya wrote:

Another who is questioning his credibility, people like you are part of those who allow this to continue, by casting shadows of doubt and minimizing the severity of such issues. This is on your head too.

This just isn’t logical. Casting doubt on one person means somehow she’s allowing children to be beaten? So we all have to applaud this one author or we’re part of the problem? That makes no sense.

Maya

Sun, Mar 15 2015, 8:15 pm

amother wrote:

Read what I wrote.
She is dismissing the severity of it, diminishing the outcry that is needed for this to change. Our little kids are being beaten black and blue for the tiniest of infractions, and that's a fact. The longer this is "questioned" and minimized, the longer it will continue.

marina

Sun, Mar 15 2015, 9:33 pm

amother wrote:

Or perhaps the very fact that they were different in some way gave them courage and fortitude to leave.

amother

Sun, Mar 15 2015, 10:11 pm

Maya wrote:

I am the amother who wrote about people questioning Deens credibility. I think I made it clear that those werent my questions, I was just repeating what other people were questioning.
However, even if I would be questioning his credibility, doesnt mean that I dont believe that chasidishe kids arent being abused. One does not negate the other. I grew up satmar and have brothers who were beaten in school by their Rabbis as well. One brother was molested but he refused to tell anyone who did it to him.
As a side note, I was physically dragged out of class by the principal in front of my entire class. Theres more but I dont want to go into details. I still have nightmares about it. I believe that some girls were physically punished in satmar camp as well by Mr. Rosenberg (one girl was locked in a makeshift cage) but it may just all be rumors. Either way, its time for all of these teachers, rebeim, principals, etc to become licensed and be held accountable for their barbaric behavior.