Public School | Imamother

amother

Wine

Wed, Mar 25 2015, 3:44 pm

amother wrote:

I have 2 kids in public school. In our situation (hopefully this is not the case in most communities!) the middos at public school FAR FAR FAR exceed the middos at the Jewish schools. My kids are behind in limudei kodesh, but not terribly far because we have private tutors. Overall we are THRILLED with public school for our kids. Anon because I don't want you knowing which schools I'm talking about with poor middos.

Oh, dear. I could have written the above. I am beyond shocked at the middot at our school. The secular education is bad, the middot are worse. But the skills learning in kodesh is strong! - so we have decided to keep them in school for the next year. After that we may go public.

We have close friends in public and they don't have the bad middot issues our school has, and their secular studies are amazing compared to ours. We just want our kids to stay in Jewish school a little longer to build up a solid foundation of hebrew and learning skillls, and then we're probably out. I don't know what we will do for our younger children other than move.

It is a really hard choice and I trust each family to make the best decision for each of their children.

(Anon because I don't want to identify my school)

DrMom

Wed, Mar 25 2015, 4:13 pm

amother wrote:

It is never the same. It is like learning a foreign language. It is better to begin it as early as possible so it becomes more natural. There are always some differences the later you begin. 6 is late to miss the early years.

I notice the differences and they are subtle and it is an incomplete foundation. Perhaps to some like you, it looks like they caught up. Yes they can do grade level work, they still are different. I notice it in my kids and I notice it in other kids.

It is important to begin training as early as possible for things to be as natural as possible. The best horse riders begin to sit a horse long before 6. There is something to be said for beginning early training. The vast majority of educators would agree with me and think your post is ludicrous.

I don't see how much learning your genius son could have possibly missed **before the end of 1st grade** that makes his "foundation" in yahadut so "incomplete." Many children far less bright than you claim your son is have started frum schooling later in life than age 6-7 and have gone on to become fine and knowledgeable frum Jews with excellent "foundations".

I hope you don't harp on this "incomplete foundation" business in front of your son; I imagine a child trying to please you on this topic and never succeeding no matter what he does.

Shuly

Wed, Mar 25 2015, 6:50 pm

[quote="geulah papyrus"]

Shuly wrote:

The best way to choose a school (this is for religious schools too) is to visit it and the end of the day and watch the kids who leave. Do this a few times and see if that is how you want your child to be when he is older.

/quote]

It sounds like you're fear-mongering here. The way a responsible parent chooses any school is by visiting the school during school hours and viewing the school in action. At the end of a long day, most kids have pent up energy that they are getting out when they leave.

Totally not fear-mongering.
When I checked out frum schools for my oldest, I went at the end of the day to see how the kids were interacting. Yes, they were loud and excited, but they were smiling, happy, not fighting, one held the door for me, none of the teenagers were pregnant (ok, it was an all boys school Wink

). Kids were singing appropriate songs, playing catch and some were speaking - respectfully - to their teachers.

vintagebknyc

Wed, Mar 25 2015, 7:08 pm

Shuly wrote:

). Kids were singing appropriate songs, playing catch and some were speaking - respectfully - to their teachers.

the OPs son is four, you think he will have pregnant classmates?

amother

Rose

Thu, Mar 26 2015, 8:02 am

DrMom wrote:

I never say anything to my son. It is in conversations with other adult educators that this comes up. When he was babysitting and when he was a counselor, it came up and the teacher mom and his former teacher who run a day camp told me their observations.

My son is a fine boy with great middos. There is something that is different about him and it is subtle. As the poster after you said, that it is not necessarily a bad thing. I send to very RW schools where every child comes from the same mold. OP said that her son can catch up. I can spot other children that similarly had the lack of formal schooling be it they were home educated or BTs or like my children had to geographically relocate during their formative years. They are not programmed the same way.

DrMom

Thu, Mar 26 2015, 9:14 am

amother wrote:

I just don't understand what, exactly, your babysitter and counselor observed. "Programmed" to do/think what, exactly?

I can't understand how anyone with no prior knowledge of their background would be able to distinguish between:

1. an adult who grew up frum and attended frum preschool followed by frum school for the rest of his childhood,

vs

2. an adult who grew up frum and attended secular preschool followed by frum school for the rest of his childhood.

I would be very interested to see if one could consistently, in a statistically significant way, distinguish between these two categories of adults (strangers to the test-taker) using only casual observation. It would be a very interesting experiment. I remain skeptical.

geulah papyrus

Thu, Mar 26 2015, 9:30 am

I attended public schools my whole life, teach public school, and have chosen to send my children to public school instead of yeshiva and after sending them (to frum schools) for one year. Maybe what needs clarification here is that just as not all yeshivas are poor sources of secular education and poor middos, not all public schools are bastions of immorality, bad manners, teen pregnancy and the other falsifications that I've often heard people make in order to discourage families from choosing public school as an educational option for their children. All schools, regardless of their affiliation (or lack thereof,) need to be researched thoroughly to see if the school is a good fit for your child.
Within the public school system there are often gifted and accelerated programs, as well as programs for special needs children. There is no reason why any parent who opts to send their child to public school (whether for one year or for twelve) to take advantage of these opportunities should be ostracized, belittled, or made to feel inadequate in any way for making these decisions.

*eta: clarification in the second line

Last edited by geulah papyrus on Thu, Mar 26 2015, 9:44 am; edited 2 times in total

anon for this

Thu, Mar 26 2015, 9:33 am

amother wrote:

anon for this wrote:

My daughter spent 2.5 preschool years in a local public school program for children with special needs. When she was almost 6 she started Pre1a (kindergarten) in a Jewish school. Thanks to the years of quality therapy she received in public school, she's doing well now socially and is a good student in both kodesh and secular classes B"H. I really doubt that, if you compared her to her peers, you'd see a difference in her frum mind.

I don't know because she started out behind. My kids went to public school until they were almost finished first grade. They lack the foundations the other kids have. It is more noticeable in the males because their curriculum is more vigorous.

They can never catch up. My son has been tested genius level. He has been doing college level secular work since the fourth grade when he was first tested. I have given him daily tutors for Hebrew studies for years. I spend more on tutors than I do his tuition. He still lacks something in his foundation.

There is something about how a child is formed in their formative years that you can't change.

In my last sentence above, I was referring to my daughter, not your child. I'm not sure if that was clear.

My daughter's experiences have been very different than you describe. In her case public school was a very positive experience because she received the services she needed and because she had teachers who believed in her potential. I know that she couldn't have received those essential services at any Jewish school in my area, and the mainstream Jewish school educators I spoke to assumed that her physical delays meant that she was cognitively delayed as well.

Her preschool teachers, on the other hand, treated her as a child who could learn and challenged her accordingly. As a result, she learned to read and add/ subtract before she finished preschool. Considering that her (Jewish) EI therapist told me she had cognitive delays, this was significant to me, though not a big deal for a typical preschooler.

She's been mainstreamed in a Jewish school for a few years now and I haven't yet seen any negative difference between her and her peers in terms of her Jewish foundation.

Then again, some of my other children spent most of their preschool years at home, and I'm not seeing any difference between those children and their peers. Maybe the difference is so subtle that I can't spot it?

amother

Rose

Thu, Mar 26 2015, 11:49 am

DrMom wrote:

The Rebbe that ran the camp had no knowledge of my son's background and he made a comment that he didn't seem to have paid any attention in pre-school. The lady he baby sat for knew his background and was commenting on his lack of background. She wasn't saying it in a mean way. It was just an observation.

I say programmed because a big part of the frum schooling is to socialize and instill values consistent with growing up frum and obedient and following party line exactly.

There is a reason for early intervention and head start and all the programs that want to teach kids when they are younger. If there wasn't and it made no difference when you begin, then they would let the schools handle it. It is because they have solid evidence that government programs are funded. There are probably similar studies to the one you want out there in that if you teach a child when they are in their formative years, it stays with them for life.

Up until what age do you believe that it doesn't make a difference as to how kids are educated? I believe early education makes a difference that stays with the child.

saw50st8

Thu, Mar 26 2015, 12:15 pm

amother wrote:

The government is providing head start not because education that early is necessary but because exposure is necessary and poor children are at risk for not getting the exposure. So, if you are from a very poor family, the parents might both be working full time at mediocre jobs, use the cheapest possible (and often unskilled) babysitters to be able to make ends meet. Those babysitters might not be reading books or engaging the kids in meaningful ways, rather than letting them watching TV all day.

I know plenty of kids who have gone to public preschool. Most are mainstreamed by 1st grade, some later. I honestly cannot tell the difference at all. Maybe it's something about your child and the supplementation that you gave, rather than a general rule. But then again, you define frum schooling as "obedient and following party line exactly" and I vehemently disagree that all frum schools are like that. Maybe yours are, in which case it's a good thing your child won't be forced into being a blind sheep.

amother

Rose

Thu, Mar 26 2015, 12:25 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

So we both agreed that exposure at that age is necessary. The government also agrees with us. Studies support us. The only question is a value judgement as to whether it is a good thing or not to be forced to be a blind sheep.

Some would say that exposing the kids to different ideas are a bad thing.

saw50st8

Thu, Mar 26 2015, 12:31 pm

amother wrote:

Exposure to letters and numbers, shapes and colors. Not "different ideas," otherwise many frum people in places like Boro Park would be "exposing" their children.

I have yet to meet a leader who openly says we should be blind sheep.

Barbara

Thu, Mar 26 2015, 12:40 pm

amother wrote:

No, that's not correct.

Quote:

The Head Start program originated as part of a comprehensive effort to combat poverty in America by providing children ages three to five years old with a range of services. Head Start approaches the needs of the whole child and the family by providing health, education, social services, and parent-community involvement in one program. Most Head Start programs serve children ages three to five years, but the program also supports Early Start for infants and toddlers, Parent/Child Centers, and programs that help children make the transition to elementary school.

IOW, education is only one component of Head Start.

Moreover, the reason for the education component was that it was felt that children living below the poverty level were not receiving the same sort of school preparedness that other children were receiving. Things as simple as being read to, or being exposed to the alphabet.

There are no studies indicating that a child who does not learn things at age 3 never can or will learn them.

I think that maybe you misinterpreted. Perhaps your child is a bit out of the box, but that almost certainly has more to do with who he is, inherently, than with his preschool experience. As to a comment that he didn't pay attention in preschool, WADR, that's an offhand way to say that a child has never learned to share or to work cooperatively with others. Or maybe he just didn't know some silly song or other that kids sing in nursery school.