YT gift for my sons kallah - no money!

Happy18

Thu, Apr 02 2015, 9:54 am

amother wrote:

You desperately need a course in cultural sensitivity.

I suppose MO girls who are busy having tehillim dates and whoring themselves before the wedding in hopes of getting married would not have the same trepidation as virgins do on their wedding night.

FYI I never met a reluctant kallah. The vast overwhelming majority eagerly are anticipating getting married. I have been to numerous chassunahs where the young kallahs are hoping for a glimpse of their future husband. They draw me over to the mehitzah and show me him.

These young girls don't need to be bribed. You mistake the reason for the gifts. The couple has their household set up for them. They are given so the couple has what married people do. All married ladies wear a certain type of jewelry starting out.

Do you honestly believe what you wrote about MO girls???? If so you are a in serious need of deprogramming.

All married ladies DO NOT wear a certain type of jewelry. It is not required by halacha. It has nothing to do with setting up a household. Setting up a house hold involves beds (not a bedroom set but beds), a few dishes, pots and pans, linenes and toilet paper. The dishes and pots and pans don't even have to be a full set to start with. Jewelry has nothing to do with setting up a household. Additionally, we have had countless people on this site say how they were a reluctant kallah.

amother

Vermilion

Thu, Apr 02 2015, 9:58 am

Im the imamother who just posted about leichter. There came a point where my mother respectfully said its the standard. why shouldn't she? my parents were generous with their gifts, making a lovely vort and wedding despite not having a lot of money. My mil is very cheap by nature and my in laws are not poor. I would have been very bothered not to get a leichter which pretty much everyone in my circles gets. In my circles that is part of the bare minimum you give. And if you dont have the money, sometimes you got to put it on a credit card or take out savings for shalom. It wasn't a fight at all- my mil may not have been thrilled but she got for me and I thanked her effusively. they are beautiful and I really appreciate them.

amother

Denim

Thu, Apr 02 2015, 10:00 am

amother wrote:

There is money for matzoh and for kallahs in the community. No one is going without matzoh. One one in the community is going without anything else they need for Pesach. I was in a store yesterday and I saw a large family I know going wild buying tights and bows. The mom showed me she was given a $100 per girl certificate.

The matzoh factory, the dry goods, chicken facilities, etc all give their 10%. I have seen sedar plates complete with the food given out. Cases of Kedem wine, grape juice, cooking wines, oranges, apples, eggs, cheese, plastic wear, chocolate, white cloth table cloths, roasts, coffee and of course potatoes given out.

No one is going without to give a kallah what all her peers are getting.

My brother in law lives on social security and food stamps. He recently had surgery, and lost 90 pounds. He has no clothing that fits him. I have no money to buy him new clothing.

He has no matzo, wine, grape juice, cooking wine, or any of the other foods that you mention. Unfortunately, he isn't feeling well enough to come to us for the holiday. So the only food -- including matzo -- that he will have for Passover is what I send over tomorrow.

So please send on over some of those vouchers and some of that food. Because there are plenty of Jews who need them a lot more than any teenager needs a pair of diamond earrings.

SRS

Thu, Apr 02 2015, 10:08 am

amother wrote:

It is always easier to spend someone else's money. If you don't have the money, run up the credit card. If the MIL doesn't spend her money she is "cheap", but few of these couples have ever earned enough money themselves to have afforded a single one of these gifts. "Shalom" is when one couple has sleepless nights worry about the credit card while the other couple has some bling.

This thread is a clear demonstration about why no problem discussed here can ever be solved. School bullying, look what the adults do to each other to negotiate. Financial issues, look at the example of what is "normal." Shidduch crisis, let's price people out.

mommy3b2c

Thu, Apr 02 2015, 10:10 am

Barbara wrote:

I think that plenty of Chassidish people have opined that its not necessary or even desirable to ask for tzedaka to purchase expensive jewelry as a Pesach gift.

Plenty of Chassidish people have suggested that less expensive gifts such as a siddur would be acceptable, and likely welcome.

I seriously doubt that Ms. "Korban" (as if the kallah is being placed on an altar and burnt alive if she doesn't get an expensive pair of earrings for Pesach) represents most Chassidim.

I agree with you. Plenty of chassidish people dont think that all this expensive jewelry is a must. Or that tzedaka for jewelry is normal. Thats why I find it offensive that so many posters split everyone into MO or chassidish/yeshivish. There are so many types of people that dont fall into any of those categories, or who do fall into those categories but dont necessarily agree with the things many people assume they agree with just because theyre "chassisish"

Frumdoc

Thu, Apr 02 2015, 10:10 am

imaima wrote:

I wonder why everyone bashes chassidim and other "special circles"? As if secular people are not materialistic at all? Go to any non-Jewish board or a wedding Pinterest board and you will see what people spend their money on! Everyone expects at least a carat, and their kids own an Iphone by the age of 7.

I dislike any society that prioritises materialism in that way, the religious side is irrelevant. I loath the superficial, materialistic, celebrity worshipping mass culture, it disgusts me.

And I have no iphone, silver plated candlesticks, a brass chanukiah, laminate kitchen surfaces, a battered 12 yr old car, no diamond bracelet, a 5 yr old 500 dollar sheital for shabbos and a proud half carat diamond ring my dh bought with his own hard earned cash. It is the smallest compared to all my sisters and inlaws, but theirs were bought by their parents in law.

Far, far fewer material goods than my yeshivish siblings and sibs in law in learning, who we help out when we can. I'm good with that - sameach b'chelko, as they say.

amother

Wine

Thu, Apr 02 2015, 10:14 am

SRS wrote:

I did not have an easy time spending other peoples money which is why I tried finding a way to pay for the ring myself (hey which girl doesn't want one at all??) and would have gladly added money to the leichter had my mother in law not been there with me. I also spent time looking for the cheapest possible yichud room present which I found on sale (and was a fraction of what most girls in these circles get). DH didn't want to not give me the standard gifts. He also wanted to feel special being able to give it to me.

Frumdoc

Thu, Apr 02 2015, 10:21 am

amother wrote:

I don't know what a tehillim date is but I doubt it is zexually charged ;-)

I've never actually heard of a tefillin date IRL, I assume it is an urban myth. Like the hole in the sheet.

And being tolerant to other cultures doesn't mean approving, respecting or agreeing with it.

I think it was Evelyn Hall who said in her biography of Voltaire " I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".

Do what you wish, tell me it is in the name of holiness and a G-d who demands such practices if that is what you really believe.

I disagree and reserve the right to do so.

SRS

Thu, Apr 02 2015, 10:27 am

imaima wrote:

Excuse me, US currency as well as US is how old??
And now that you are talking about pessach, let's talk about makkat choshech and Jews taking gold from Egyptian homes.

The gold was compensation, the money that Bnai Yisrael was owed for their labor. If someone doesn't pay for their car loan, it can be repossessed. If I take my car to the mechanic, I need to pay my bill to get my car back. Hashem allowed the Jewish people to repossess what was stolen from them and be compensated for their labor. But the wealth came at a price, the egel hazahav. Masechet Brachos has Moshe's defense of the egel ha zahav "The calf was constructed because of the gold and silver with which You showered them until the people said enough." Basically it is easier to squander resources that you lack a connection with and the wealth was too much to handle.

And I think here we see the crux of the issue and a growing disconnect between communities. It seems we have an inverse relationship between communities with more unearned income and earned income and how they spend their money.

ora_43

Thu, Apr 02 2015, 10:37 am

I understand why people find the idea of jewelry as a "must" upsetting, but I don't understand why there's so much upset over this in comparison to a million and one other things.

Some groups think of jewelry as necessary when it's not. OTOH, in MO and secular circles wedding expenses tend to be higher overall (and let's not kid ourselves that everyone who got their kids a live band, flowers, or an open bar at their wedding could afford it without going into debt).

In some circles, people will be horrified at the poor, "korban" kids whose parents can't afford classes in ballet or piano. Everyone has their own, often totally unwarranted, sense of "must."

And yes, tzedaka dollars sometimes go toward those things. Or to things like new books for local libraries, or new pews for the local synagogue, or a nicer mikva so women will feel better about the mitzva, etc. All kinds of things that are not immediate assistance to homeless, starving children.

To be clear, I do think that every frum community would do well to cut back on what's not necessary in order to make sure that everyone has what they need. I just think we should keep in mind that other people's "must have"s are always going to look stupider to us than our own.

mummiedearest

Thu, Apr 02 2015, 10:39 am

amother wrote:

right. but his parents paid for them. so he didn't give them to you, they did. and he could afford to want to give you all the standards, because he wasn't spending his money.

when dh and I got engaged, he gave me a bracelet he bought himself. had he asked me, I would have told him not to get me one. I'm not into bling. I didn't even want a ring, but my mother worked on me for years: "if it's offered, you'll accept it." I went with him to pick out a ring, I picked out a tiny ring which was beautiful. he insisted on getting something more standard. I found something I liked, but I refused to wear it unless I was with him. I had no interest in walking around with that much money on one finger. beyond those gifts, we sat down and went through the list of "common" engagement gifts. we both pretty much had what we needed. my father bought him his tallis (my dad wanted to, and insisted on buying an extra one for shabbos), and I bought him cufflinks. he had a watch, a shas, a kiddush cup, etc. I didn't want more jewelry, already had pearls, and begged my mom for her candlesticks, which are a family heirloom. she always hated the way they looked, so I asked for them and told her she should treat herself to beautiful candlesticks. we bought each other yichud room gifts (why shouldn't I give him a wedding present), neither of which was expensive. as for yom tov gifts, I showed up at his house erev shavuos with a homemade cheesecake for his parents. a few hours later, he showed up at my house with flowers. it never occurred to him to get me something for yom tov until I came to his house. I wouldn't have missed the gift had he not gotten me anything.

I would have been very upset if he insisted on giving me thousands of dollars worth of jewelry on his parents' dime. I grew up knowing that we didn't go to florida for winter vacation because we couldn't afford it. I saw my parents trying to budget on a regular basis. if my parents gave me cash to buy clothing and I went over that amount, I used my own money. as soon as I got a regular job, I paid for my own clothing and for part of the family groceries. I paid my own cell phone bill. my parents' money was not mine to spend, and I would never attempt to spend my in-laws', no matter how common the practice. my mom actually offered to support us for a year so my husband could learn, but I didn't tell my husband until later. neither of us were ok with that. he worked part-time for four months so he could go to kollel. he was lucky that his job allowed for that.

you don't spend someone else's money to make you feel good. you look inside yourself and see what is lacking and work on that. diamonds don't make you happy. you make you happy. a kallah not recognizing this is not a valid reason for the future in-laws to go into debt. marriage involves compromise, and not just with your spouse. when you get married, you have to be willing to work with your in-laws to have a peaceful relationship. demanding expensive items is detrimental to the whole future of the family, in more ways than one.

rosehill

Thu, Apr 02 2015, 10:42 am

amother wrote:

That's fascinating. I've received at least 6 phone calls in the last 24 hours asking for money for various funds supporting the poor on Pesach.

In my relatively affluent community where I live, there is a young wife recovering from multiple surgeries, who's husband is just starting out in his career, for whom my rabbi ran around collecting so that the kids could have clothes for Yom tov.

Ywn has articles every single day about different projects helping the poor, the unemployed, the disabled, the ill.

My 7 year old brought her father her piggy bank this morning, and asked him to take some money out to give tzedaka to the poor people. I'll be darned if someone thinks that money should buy a young girl some jewelry.