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Equal work for equal pay.
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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 08 2015, 11:44 pm
Yes, any Orthodox Jew, any at all, could in the foreseeable future herself have a large family or be closely related to one, very closely indeed, such as a sister or brother. It's a thing with us and we are sympathetic to what is needed to make that possible.

In Avos: "what's mine is mine, what's yours is yours" was said in Sdom, maybe, one interpretation. But I am no scholar.

So maybe all those men making 30% more for equal work (and it isn't always equal, sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't, and 90% of job injuries and deaths happen to men etc etc) are being subsidized so their wives can spend that money staying home with babies? And raise them?

Of course, some of the men just pocket the money, and don't marry, or make their wives fulfill themselves intellectually by not having babies, then they fulfill themselves just having nice vacations, which wasn't the intent of the subsidy.

I guess you can't prevent some of that and still have human beings instead of efficient baby houses.

That was tried in the early kibbutzes and didn't work.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 09 2015, 6:49 am
Found on Twitter: "Dove's new ad campaign has women choose which door to use. How about a third door that says: I Just Want Equal Pay"
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 09 2015, 1:17 pm
Amother, I just wanted to say that I appreciate your honesty. Even though I do not agree with your actions.
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amother
Slategray


 

Post Thu, Apr 09 2015, 1:24 pm
marina wrote:
Amother, I just wanted to say that I appreciate your honesty. Even though I do not agree with your actions.


Thanks we disagree on virtually everything, but on this point I have to admit that I really do hear both sides. I can understand a woman who works just as hard as another co-worker and yet still gets a smaller bonus because she happens not to be married or happens to have a smaller family feeling resentful.

As I said I really am conflicted about what is right and what is wrong in this case and think that we have to present the shaila to a Rov before next Yom Tov.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 09 2015, 1:34 pm
amother wrote:
Thanks we disagree on virtually everything, but on this point I have to admit that I really do hear both sides. I can understand a woman who works just as hard as another co-worker and yet still gets a smaller bonus because she happens not to be married or happens to have a smaller family feeling resentful.

As I said I really am conflicted about what is right and what is wrong in this case and think that we have to present the shaila to a Rov before next Yom Tov.


A single girl will get probably get married and need that money at some point. I know women who saved up lots of money before marriage and were able to put a downpayment on a house with their savings.
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debsey




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 09 2015, 2:01 pm
amother wrote:
Thanks we disagree on virtually everything, but on this point I have to admit that I really do hear both sides. I can understand a woman who works just as hard as another co-worker and yet still gets a smaller bonus because she happens not to be married or happens to have a smaller family feeling resentful.

As I said I really am conflicted about what is right and what is wrong in this case and think that we have to present the shaila to a Rov before next Yom Tov.


Personally, I'd be FURIOUS. First of all, the boss is not G-d. How do you know if a married person is actually being supported by wealthy in-laws, while the "single girl" is really helping out an impoverished sibling? You can't decide who "NEEDS" a bonus. That sounds like the myth of the "worthy poor" in Victorian England!

I can't think of a better way to alienate loyal employees and create all sorts of politics and conflicts in the office. The biggest reason I decided not to be an employee anymore was because there were all sorts of hidden criteria for raises, bonuses and promotions. I like working in a place where I get how the standard for success works. If the standard for success is "she's the granddaughter of a famous tzadik" or "she's married to a cheder rebbe" - well, that's not exactly something I can change with my own effort! I like my success to be based on clear criteria, and therefore, I provide that for my (very few, admittedly) employees!

For me, I'm not so smart. I have no way of knowing who NEEDS what. You work hard? You make MY life more manageable? You allow me to focus on MY job, which is growing the business and ultimately, benefitting us all? Great! You get a bigger bonus. Simple! That way, everyone KNOWS what the standard is.

That's not to say I've never given tzedaka in the form of hiring someone for light temp work or disguised tzedakah as a bonus. I have. But I'm clear about it to myself.

The biggest chessed I can POSSIBLY do is to STAY SOLVENT and STAY OPEN so we ALL keep our parnassah! To me it's the "give a man a fish, you feed him a day, teach him to fish, you feed him for life" analogy.
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L25




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 09 2015, 2:28 pm
Debsey- I usually love your posts and this is no exception! I'm honestly shocked that just because someone has more kids they get paid more! its not hard enough for lets say a single person who hasn't found their shidduch, a couple who doesn't have kids yet... they need to be treated "worse" because of it- let them at least enjoy the financial benefit from what they worked hard for.
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SRS




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 09 2015, 2:31 pm
amother wrote:
As an employer I can attest that what you are saying is true.
I have an all female workforce but when say handing out bonuses I take into account family so if before Yom Tov I have an u-married girl and another who is married for children with a lot of Yom Tov expenses I will give the married woman a larger bonus then the unmarried.

I can understand why this is unfair and I am conflicted at times about this policy.
However I think I had a huge company that was turning this amazing profit where really money was not an issue I would give everyone the same amount depending on basic non-biased criteria. However while B"H we are growing rapidly it hasn't reached that point yet so when I only have a limited amount of money to give as bonuses I think that responsibility towards my employees requires me to take these factors into account.
I would like to think that if I would put the question down on the table my unmarried employees would say the same thing.

But again I am conflicted about it. I actually think that before next Yom Tov I will ask my DH to ask a Rov a shaila about this.


I'd be curious what a Rav says, but general practice in frum business seems to be 'discriminatory' towards those with more kids and those who are married. I think the real question is who do you want to give a bonus to and why. If your reason is to grant bonuses based on status and number of kids, you are engaging in a business practice that could possibly land you in hot water. And even if it does not, it could possibly create resentment long term or cause great employees to take their talents elsewhere because they don't like the type of environment that this type of pay discrimination creates.
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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 09 2015, 3:02 pm
People who are usually politically liberal, today, today only, are for a flat tax? Not a graduated income tax? What? What is a graduated income tax if not treating people differently based on personal circumstances? When they have done the exact same work.

Paying an employee with a lot of kids more is a graduated tax. Meaning, paying the single less is a graduated tax; he/she gets less because of needing less. For the exact same work.

There will always be an attempt at balance and a back-and-forth, the question is not simple.

Here, there may be true discrimination.

In other areas across the US there is often a lumping of dangerous jobs with other jobs making the undifferentiated aggregate look more unfair than it is. If you lump everything together and just call it "hours worked" it's not an accurate portrayal of who is doing what for an hour's pay. Men do almost all the injury taking and dying on job sites. 90%. No, it's not a comparable hour's work. The utter dangerousness of much work is never discussed. You like your fuel oil? Living in a house? Eating farm grown food? Lots of danger in all that, much of it male.

If a woman will do something for less than a man would, why is she scabbing?

As a natalist, I could wonder why she isn't kicking him out the door to go get the "Man's Salary" so she can have kids and a new egg-beater.
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L25




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 09 2015, 3:35 pm
Dolly WADR- there are single women who support themselves. there are women who's husband is not well even though it isn't common knowledge.... its really not so simple. Noone know other peoples expenses...
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amother
Slategray


 

Post Thu, Apr 09 2015, 3:45 pm
L25 wrote:
Dolly WADR- there are single women who support themselves. there are women who's husband is not well even though it isn't common knowledge.... its really not so simple. Noone know other peoples expenses...


The reason's you are saying is actually one of the reason I am conflicted about this policy.

However the reality is that in virtually all circumstances I will know 90% of the extenuating circumstances on one of my employees and in the rare instances where I do not know a co-worker will and therefore I will find out.
We have a pretty relaxed and close working environment.
Of course there are rare exceptions, however does the rare exceptions warrant a change in the policy that is warranted in the vast majority of case's?

(Again I am stating this only because of what you brought up, the question of whether pure merit should be the basis of salary and bonus decisions as a purely right vs wrong question is a different moral question then the reasons you pose)
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SRS




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 09 2015, 4:12 pm
amother-Here is my advice. Stop thinking too much about the individuals and start thinking about what compensation is appropriate based on performance and value the employee brings to the table. It will eliminate your conflict and will build a healthier work environment. I think a lot of frum businesses end up giving up talent that they might otherwise have because of these type of practices among others.
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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 09 2015, 4:16 pm
It will always be complicated.
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debsey




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 09 2015, 4:24 pm
L25 wrote:
Debsey- I usually love your posts and this is no exception! I'm honestly shocked that just because someone has more kids they get paid more! its not hard enough for lets say a single person who hasn't found their shidduch, a couple who doesn't have kids yet... they need to be treated "worse" because of it- let them at least enjoy the financial benefit from what they worked hard for.


Thank you. I'm not saying it doesn't happen - that businesses use all sorts of criteria that are not legit to justify paying under market rate or to justify favoritism. I just deny:
1) that it is effective business practice
2) that it has any basis in Halacha or frumkeit (I don't think G-d is going to give you business success if you base your bonuses or salaries on this.)
3) that it is a feminist issue - it seems that it's more of a "playing G-d" issue or some sort of superstitious idea that Hashem will reward you for using these mysterious criteria for giving higher salaries/bonuses.

I once got great business advice from one of the major "frum entrepeneurs" (one of those guys who through honest labor built up a business empire) he told me - I'm on the board of every frum organization there is, I give more tzedaka than the money I actually live on - I"m hardly anti-tzedakah - but I firmly believe - you hire and you pay based on sound business principles. Then you take your PROFITS and give tzedakah from that.
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MagentaYenta




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 09 2015, 6:52 pm
Dolly Welsh wrote:
People who are usually politically liberal, today, today only, are for a flat tax? Not a graduated income tax? What? What is a graduated income tax if not treating people differently based on personal circumstances? When they have done the exact same work.

Paying an employee with a lot of kids more is a graduated tax. Meaning, paying the single less is a graduated tax; he/she gets less because of needing less. For the exact same work.

There will always be an attempt at balance and a back-and-forth, the question is not simple.

Here, there may be true discrimination.

In other areas across the US there is often a lumping of dangerous jobs with other jobs making the undifferentiated aggregate look more unfair than it is. If you lump everything together and just call it "hours worked" it's not an accurate portrayal of who is doing what for an hour's pay. Men do almost all the injury taking and dying on job sites. 90%. No, it's not a comparable hour's work. The utter dangerousness of much work is never discussed. You like your fuel oil? Living in a house? Eating farm grown food? Lots of danger in all that, much of it male.

If a woman will do something for less than a man would, why is she scabbing?

As a natalist, I could wonder why she isn't kicking him out the door to go get the "Man's Salary" so she can have kids and a new egg-beater.


You can spend all day typing false analogies, it doesn't make them accurate. Unequal pay has zero to do with graduated or flat taxes. Because women are under represented in a variety of jobs doesn't mean that men should get paid more than a woman. Simply because men hold some of these jobs isn't the reason for a higher pay scale based on gender. So what men make up the majority of work related deaths, it's still a false analogy. Dangerous jobs often do come with pay differentials based on actual duties performed and not the gender of the person performing them (I.e. hot wire differentials for power workers, high work differentials in some trades).

Because a woman may get paid less for a job doesn't mean she is a scab. As an old labor organizer I don't think scabbing means what you think it means. Words have meanings. A scab is someone who crosses a union picket line to do the work of a striker. A woman getting paid less than a man for the same duties isn't scabbing. She's dealing with an unfair labor practice. You can call her a scab but you are wrong.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 14 2015, 6:07 pm
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 14 2015, 8:39 pm
I need a vacation. I read the title as "equal work for equal play" which, on reflection, is not an reasonable demand.

ETA: UNreasonable. it is not an UNreasonable demand. A superb example of why computers can never replace human beans.


Last edited by zaq on Wed, Apr 15 2015, 5:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 15 2015, 3:33 am
zaq wrote:
I need a vacation. I read the title as "equal work for equal play" which, on reflection, is not an reasonable demand.

Play isn't distributed fairly either
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 15 2015, 5:37 pm
imasoftov wrote:
Play isn't distributed fairly either


whoops, that was supposed to be "not an UNreasonable demand"!
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 15 2015, 5:42 pm
imasoftov wrote:
Play isn't distributed fairly either


You said it, sister. "A man may work from sun to sun but a woman's work is never done". Probably because no sooner does she do her work than someone comes and undoes it.
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