Another airplane, another delay

vintagebknyc

Thu, Apr 09 2015, 4:13 pm

here we go again... from the NYT

Aboard Flights, Conflicts Over Seat Assignments and Religion

By MICHAEL PAULSONAPRIL 9, 2015
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Several flights from New York to Israel over the last year have been delayed when ultra-Orthodox Jewish men have refused to sit next to women. Credit Bryan Thomas for The New York Times
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Francesca Hogi, 40, had settled into her aisle seat for the flight from New York to London when the man assigned to the adjoining window seat arrived and refused to sit down. He said his religion prevented him from sitting beside a woman who was not his wife. Irritated but eager to get underway, she eventually agreed to move.

Laura Heywood, 42, had a similar experience while traveling from San Diego to London via New York. She was in a middle seat — her husband had the aisle — when the man with the window seat in the same row asked if the couple would switch positions. Ms. Heywood, offended by the notion that her relations made her an unacceptable seatmate, refused.

“I wasn’t rude, but I found the reason to be sexist, so I was direct,” she said.

A growing number of airline passengers, particularly on trips between the United States and Israel, are now sharing stories of conflicts between ultra-Orthodox Jewish men trying to follow their faith and women just hoping to sit down. Several flights from New York to Israel over the last year have been delayed or disrupted over the issue, and with social media spreading outrage and debate, the disputes have spawned a protest initiative, an online petition and a spoof safety video from a Jewish magazine suggesting a full-body safety vest (“Yes, it’s kosher!”) to protect ultra-Orthodox men from women seated next to them on airplanes.
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Francesca Hogi, while traveling from New York to London, agreed to change seats when an ultra-Orthodox Jewish man refused to sit next to her. Credit Nicole Bengiveno/The New York Times

Some passengers say they have found the seat-change requests simply surprising or confusing. But in many cases, the issue has exposed and amplified tensions between different strains of Judaism.

Jeremy Newberger, a 41-year-old documentary filmmaker who witnessed an episode on a Delta flight from New York to Israel, was among several Jewish passengers who were offended.

“I grew up Conservative, and I’m sympathetic to Orthodox Jews,” he said. “But this Hasid came on, looking very uncomfortable, and wouldn’t even talk to the woman, and there was five to eight minutes of ‘What’s going to happen?’ before the woman acquiesced and said, ‘I’ll move.’ It felt like he was being a yutz.”

Representatives of the ultra-Orthodox insist that the behavior is anomalous and rare. “I think that the phenomenon is nowhere near as prevalent as some media reports have made it seem,” said Rabbi Avi Shafran, director of public affairs at Agudath Israel of America, which represents the ultra-Orthodox community. Rabbi Shafran noted that despite religious laws that prohibit physical contact between Jewish men and women who are not their wives, many ultra-Orthodox men follow the guidance of an eminent Orthodox scholar, Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, who counseled that it was acceptable for a Jewish man to sit next to a woman on a subway or bus so long as there was no intention to seek s-xual pleasure from any incidental contact.

“The haredi men I know,” Rabbi Shafran said, using the Hebrew word for the ultra-Orthodox, “have no objection to sitting next to a woman on any flight.”

But multiple travelers, scholars and the airlines themselves say the phenomenon is real. The number of episodes appears to be increasing as ultra-Orthodox communities grow in number and confidence, but also as other passengers, for reasons of comfort as well as politics, push back.

“It’s very common,” said Rabbi Yehudah Mirsky, an associate professor of Judaic studies at Brandeis University. “Multiculturalism creates a moral language where a group can say, ‘You have to respect my values.’”

Anat Hoffman, the executive director of the Israel Religious Action Center, which has started a campaign urging women not to give up their seats, said, “I have 100 stories.”

And Rabbi Ysoscher Katz, a Modern Orthodox Talmud scholar who grew up in the ultra-Orthodox Satmar sect, said, “When I was still part of that community, and on the more conservative side, I would make every effort I could not to sit next to a woman on the plane, because of a fear that you might touch a woman by accident.”
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While traveling from San Diego to London via New York, Laura Heywood refused to move so that her husband, Steven Soden, would not have to give up his aisle seat. “I wasn’t going to put his comfort for no good reason above my husband’s,” she said of the ultra-Orthodox Jewish man who had asked her to change seats. Credit Sandy Huffaker for The New York Times

Airlines, and flight attendants, are often caught in the middle. Morgan Durrant, a Delta Air Lines spokesman, acknowledged the phenomenon, saying: “This is a dynamic of some customers who utilize our service. We’re aware of it, and we do what we can to get ahead of it prior to boarding.”

Other airlines had little to say about the situation, other than to agree that a variety of passengers make a variety of requests when traveling, and that carriers try to accommodate them.
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Recent Comments
Nancy
6 minutes ago

If I stood in the aisle refusing to be seated for 15-20 minutes as the person on Andrew Roffe's flight did, I would certainly have been...
RM
21 minutes ago

Simple solution. Sit in an aisle or window seat, purchase seat next to yours, and either leave it vacant or invite a travel mate that...
peggysmom
22 minutes ago

I purposely book my flights months ahead of time, which I realize that people cannot always do, because I cannot sit next to the window due...

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It is not an entirely new issue; some ultra-Orthodox travelers have tried to avoid mixed-relations seating for years. But now the ultra-Orthodox Jewish population is growing rapidly because of high birthrates. Ultra-Orthodox men and their families now make up a larger share of airline travelers to Israel and other locations, and they are exerting their economic influence more often, making their views more widely known in response to what they see as the sexualization of society.

The issues on airplanes echo controversies over efforts to separate men and women on buses and streets, as well as to remove women from some news photographs.

“The ultra-Orthodox have increasingly seen gender separation as a kind of litmus test of Orthodoxy — it wasn’t always that way, but it has become that way,” said Samuel Heilman, a professor of sociology at Queens College. “There is an ongoing culture war between these people and the rest of the modern world, and because the modern world has increasingly sought to become gender neutral, that has added to the desire to say, ‘We’re not like that.’”

Some passengers are sympathetic. Hamilton Morris, a 27-year-old journalist from Brooklyn, said he agreed to give up his seat on a US Airways flight from Los Angeles to Newark via Chicago because it seemed like the considerate thing to do.

“There was a Hasidic Jew sitting across the aisle, between two women, and a stewardess approached me and quietly asked if I would be willing to exchange seats because the Hasidic Jew was uncomfortable sitting between two women,” he said. “I was fine with that. Everyone was trying to be accommodating because on airplanes everyone is anxious about offending anyone for religious reasons.”

And yet Ms. Heywood, a paralegal from Chula Vista, Calif., said she declined to give up her seat for reasons of both politics and seat preference — her husband finds flying less stressful in aisle seats. “I wasn’t going to put his comfort for no good reason above my husband’s,” she said.

Other passengers, like Andrew Roffe, a 31-year-old writer based in Los Angeles, said he and a friend wound up debating the ethics of the situation after Mr. Roffe described his experience on a United Airlines flight to Chicago. When they started to board, he said, an ultra-Orthodox man stood in the aisle, refusing to move and delaying the departure for 15 to 20 minutes until another passenger volunteered to switch seats.

“My buddy who is Orthodox was saying this is a traditional thing — he doesn’t want to be tempted when his wife wasn’t there. And I said, ‘Are you kidding?’ This was just some woman flying to work or home and minding her own business.”

vintagebknyc

Thu, Apr 09 2015, 4:14 pm

can someone change the typo in my headline? that would be "delay"

BrachaBatya

Sat, Apr 11 2015, 8:34 pm

Honestly, these stories AJR all too common and they are so embarrassing.

FranticFrummie

Sun, Apr 12 2015, 4:10 am

I hope this happens to me some day. I'll hand him an airline blanket and tell him "Put up a mechitzah!"

luppamom

Sun, Apr 12 2015, 4:35 am

I was once boarding an El Al flight alone w/ a 3 month old baby (DH wanted a little more time before boarded but I wanted to get situated w/ the baby.) As I am juggling my carry-on and baby, this dati Israeli guy asks me if I could switch seats w/ his girlfriend. I thought it was a huge chutzpah that he would even ask as I looked like I was traveling alone (he had no idea that DH was coming) and I was holding a young infant. I didn't quite understand the guy so I told him to ask my husband when he arrived.

Anyway, DH comes and this guy wants me to move across the plane so he can sit next to his girlfriend. DH obviously said no. He wanted to sit near his wife and help with his baby. The guy got so mad at DH that he put on his headphones and ignored us even when DH tried to talk to him. Overall, the arrangements were not comfortable it was DH on aisle, this dude in the middle and me by the window. I wanted to nurse and it was going to be very uncomfortable. When there was some type of announcement, DH asked the guy if HE wanted to switch w/ DH. (A very good deal. DH was offering the aisle for a middle seat.) The guy refused. He started doing other jerky things like blocking us from standing up with his knees etc. etc.

DH and I obviously couldn't manage w/ this guy. We obviously needed to be together and this guy was making things so difficult for us. Other passengers witnessed the jerk and we had numerous offers of people willing to switch with us. Bottom line, we switched. I ended up on an aisle, but most of the other people on aisles were women and comfortably nursed. The guy got to sit next to his girlfriend (once people were switching, he threw in that he wanted to sit next to her).

So it's not only the ultra-Orthodox!

Sanguine

Sun, Apr 12 2015, 5:42 am

luppamom wrote:

Other passengers witnessed the jerk and we had numerous offers of people willing to switch with us.

So it's not only the ultra-Orthodox!

No, just Jerks. Meaning that I know that all ultra-orthodox aren't jerks but the ones that are, are obviously to all ultra-orthodox Jews and their gedolim should help them find a solution. I was interested to read in the article here

Quote:

Rabbi Shafran noted that despite religious laws that prohibit physical contact between Jewish men and women who are not their wives, many ultra-Orthodox men follow the guidance of an eminent Orthodox scholar, Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, who counseled that it was acceptable for a Jewish man to sit next to a woman on a subway or bus so long as there was no intention to seek s-xual pleasure from any incidental contact.

There are all sorts of jerks in the world as luppamom's story shows, but we have to always rise above that.

DrMom

Sun, Apr 12 2015, 8:26 am

I kind of wonder how often this really happens, relative to the size of the Orthodox flying public, and how it compares to annoying seat-switching requests among the non-Orthodox-Jewish population.

I know there were a few big incidents that were indeed a chilul hashem (long delays, loud rude behavior, etc.), but I see no need to harp on every little request for a seat change.

luppamom

Sun, Apr 12 2015, 9:12 am

DrMom wrote:

Seriously.

But one thing is for sure. Why not wait until the flight has departed and the fasten seatbelt sign is off to do some negotiations? I am sure there are some (secular) women that would prefer not to sit next to a strange looking and acting guy who may also be overweight and smells like chulent. As long as he comes up w/ a plan that will work for her, asks her nicely and offers to help her move her carry-on (and obviously doesn't ask anyone that is elderly or is traveling w/ family), it's really not a big deal. There is no reason he can't ask respectfully.

ms5771

Sun, Apr 12 2015, 9:29 am

luppamom wrote:

Agreed. But we don't know how it actually played out. It could have been asked respectfully and the woman with her liberal values was disgusted by the notion.. It's really hard to know without being there. The media doesn't like to do unbiased.

Sanguine

Sun, Apr 12 2015, 9:39 am

luppamom wrote:

You're describing a possible situation with a normal chareidi (overweight and smells like cholent Wink

) - The trouble makers are the fanatics - They won't sit next to a women even just for take-off. They won't even look at a female to discuss a plan. So those are the Chilul Hashem guys. They learned too much Torah but no Derech Eretz.

Barbara

Sun, Apr 12 2015, 1:37 pm

DrMom wrote:

After the article appeared, I had lunch with a group that included (a) a young woman who made aliya a few years ago and is now in college, who was visiting family for Pesach; (b) a family that visits Israel at least twice a year; (c) a young couple who made aliya, but who fly back and forth at least a few times a year to visit family; and (d) a family that visits Israel about every other year. All agreed that when flying on airlines used by Charedi passengers (and all agreed there is one airline that Charedim rarely use), there are issues with changing seats on EVERY ISRAELI FLIGHT. In comparison, I used to fly a couple of times a month for business, and never saw any seat-changing issues on US domestic flights.

Mrs Bissli

Sun, Apr 12 2015, 2:02 pm

Actually I was asked last year if I would switch seat on Zurich-Tel Aviv flight. I was rather loathe to do so because my luggage was already on overhead compartment and I needed access to it during the flight. I told him I wouldn't mind changing the seat only if they can pay me to upgrade to business class. He didn't press his case much further. In retrospect, I hope this guy wasn't "intent to seek s-xual pleasure from any incidental contact".

debsey

Sun, Apr 12 2015, 3:29 pm

ms5771 wrote:

This is true. But once someone is refusing to sit down when instructed to, that's causing problems for EVERYONE.
I tend to defend the charedi viewpoint on here, but this is not something I "get." DH is quite yeshivishe, very uncomfortable sitting next to a woman if he can avoid it. So he asks - once. If he gets a no, that's it. He has put his money where his mouth is - he once was switched from next to a normal sized woman to a seat next to a 300 lb, not terribly olfactorily pleasant man. It was not enjoyable for him, to say the least, but he'd rather be squished and uncomfortable if it means he can uphold his tznius values. I think some normalcy and social skills is called for. If you really think it's "yehareg v'al ya'var," buy a second ticket. If you don't - don't hold up the flight.

Machel

Sun, Apr 12 2015, 9:53 pm

When I was flying to Israel for a trip I was assigned a middle seat between 2 ultra-orthodox men. At the time I wasn't particularly religious but I felt uncomfortable myself and I knew they must have been unhappy with the situation. I was too shy to talk to them and help rectify it, but one of them went to talk to someone and another religious women took the seat instead.

I would think if its a flight with a lot of Charedi men, wouldn't there be at least a few women who are also sensitive about who they sit with who might be open to switching, its not only men who don't want to sit beside a women, some women would rather not sit beside a strange man.

That being said I do not think it is ok to inconvenience an entire plane and cause a chilul hashem. if this is becoming more of a common problem, then there needs to be a proactive solution.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Apr 12 2015, 10:00 pm

Barbara wrote:

Barbara, Im not really sure what to make of your anecdotal information. I have lived in Israel for over 12 years. I have flown to and from american and to and from south africa. I have NEVER experienced any issues with charedi passengers. Ever. So, your stories dont really mean much because that was their experiences, but I am sure it is not nearly everyone's/
Never heard of such a things before.

Barbara

Sun, Apr 12 2015, 10:17 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Well, then, neither does your anecdotal information, so I'm not really sure why you are posting what you believe to be utterly meaningless information.

My sole point, of course, is that thus phenomenon is not limited to the publicized cases, as some people suggest.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Apr 12 2015, 10:18 pm

Barbara wrote:

I realize that.
My point was to show you that it happens MUCH less than people are stating here.

DrMom

Sun, Apr 12 2015, 10:26 pm

I have lived in Israel for over 15 years, and have travelled a bit and actually have never experienced nor witnessed this problem. I have extremely anti-religious relatives who visit 3x/year (not on ElAl), and they have never complained about anything like this -- and believe me they would if it happened.

I would be curious about actual statistics.

I have often been asked to change seats on flights -- usually because the brilliant and overpriced airlines seat a 6-year-old twelve rows behind her mother and infant sibling.

tigerwife

Sun, Apr 12 2015, 10:43 pm

I've also traveled NY <-> Israel many times and have never experienced this. I'm sure it happens but I wonder how often. There are probably seat change requests on 95% of all flights (I personally switched twice, once for a guy who wanted to sit next to his girlfriend and for a pair of separated friends), but I never did notice one for religious issues. Of course, it's only the ones that make an embarrassing fuss that actually make the news.

luppamom

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 12:29 am

Personally, I really like SouthWest's policy. (I haven't used it in awhile, but this is what it was 3 yrs. ago.) Open seating. You sign in online 24 hrs. or less before flight and get a number. You can pay a little bit more money (it really wasn't crazy) and you could get a priority boarding which means a good number w/o having to race to the computer. Then, you could sit wherever you want. I think all airlines should do this. First class obviously would have to be done separately. Families w/ children are usually pre-boarded so they would all have seats together. Then, if there are a few men traveling, they could join up. Or they could wait until the plane is mostly filled up choose a seat that is most comfortable for them.