Suddenly defiant toddler

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Forum -> Parenting our children -> Toddlers

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amother

Forestgreen

Sun, Apr 12 2015, 8:52 pm

Hi everyone,
I'm calling on all the Imamothers' experience for help with this one: my oldest will be 3 in a couple months and has always been extremely curious and energetic, a slight tendency for pushing boundaries but generally well behaved and a pretty good listener. Over the last few weeks I think she's entered a new phase and become very defiant towards me and pretty much just towards me (it seems like Tatty can do no wrong). Every interaction becomes a fight, and I just realized that I'm dreading basic things like mealtimes or turning on a video or going to the bathroom because I know a blow up is coming. Be it about what food I gave her, which utensils, if she wanted a different video, to flush the potty herself, etc it's so unpleasant and stressful. I have a feeling it's normal-ish behavior on her part but I have no idea how to deal with it!

Dolly Welsh

Sun, Apr 12 2015, 9:19 pm

The father must state in loud clear tones to Listen To Mommy when absolutely nothing is going on. This isn't a democracy. He's king, and she has to learn her mom is royal too: queen.

Sure it's normal, but that doesn't mean it should be allowed to stand.

Don't delay. It is essential you continue to like her. You have one nerve left and she is getting on it. And you can't handle this. It must be Hubby. Right away. Don't wait for an opportune moment. He doesn't need an opportune moment. And his tone must be firm and he must not be touching her when he says this, not holding her.

Last edited by Dolly Welsh on Sun, Apr 12 2015, 9:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

PAMOM

Sun, Apr 12 2015, 9:20 pm

It's definitely normal ( and developmentally important ) behavior. Here are some preliminary suggestions. If you have examples of specific incidents, I'll try to be more helpful. I used to tell my toddler, " I love to tell you YES so ask me things I can say yes to." That helped a lot, and I invoked it when she wanted to do things she shouldn't. More helpful was giving her choices--do you want to flush or should I ? Do you want cereal or an egg? Pick out an outfit for the next day before bed and have her put it in a regular place. Refer to it as "the clothes you picked out" but see if you can be a little flexible if she changed his mind the next day. You can always go to picking out 2 of everything and letting her pick in the am, but constantly point out the fact that she's making the decisions. It's also essential to be firm: no, you can't play with my crystal vase (as you move it out of range ) but you can play with these pots and that Tupperware. Try to avoid confrontation. You're the grownup so you need to find a way to de-escalate situations. When she gets mad, you can't. Firm doesn't mean angry, and flexibility is your friend/ and remember--this, too, will pass, and you'll have shaped a self/confident, independent child. And you'll have permanent indentations from biting your lip.
Oh--and the daddy can do no wrong thing is also developmentally appropriate. He needs to set boundaries also.

Last edited by PAMOM on Sun, Apr 12 2015, 9:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

Dolly Welsh

Sun, Apr 12 2015, 9:22 pm

I disagree slightly. I don't want to legitimize defiance by deflecting it, by asking if she wants this or she wants that. I think you risk making the kid anxious, if you let them have power that they know perfectly well they shouldn't have, and can't handle. A too-powerful child is an unsafe child, and knows it very well. That's scary. A child wants powerful carers. Or who will save her from stuff? The parents need to be very much in charge.

Just a quibble, PA Mom.

Last edited by Dolly Welsh on Sun, Apr 12 2015, 9:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

MagentaYenta

Sun, Apr 12 2015, 9:24 pm

Kids are growing their egos at this stage, part of it is pushing boundaries and seeing what happens. Some parts are simple like letting them choose mismatched clothing or giving them an option of one or two outfits to choose from. Others are non negotiable. You are now at the point of learning as well. Learn to pick your fights. Good thoughts to you at this time that tries the patience of a parent. It's merely the first step in a whole series of developmental benchmarks.

PAMOM

Sun, Apr 12 2015, 9:27 pm

No, Dolly. It's age appropriate for a toddler to have some power. That's why toilet training can become an issue. It's scarey to have inappropriate levels of power (a mother who doesn't set boundaries) or to feel powerful and not know how to use the power wisely. They have to learn how to use power in a controlled environment. Look at any book on child development.

rygmom

Sun, Apr 12 2015, 10:07 pm

Give her the power she can have it, like making her decision on little things.
And tell her how you like some things she do, like helping, playing... this will give the attention she needs on the positive whey. Good look!
I had this problem with my oldest son and now he's 6 a big helper.BH!

Dolly Welsh

Sun, Apr 12 2015, 11:13 pm

PAMOM wrote:

Oh yes, some. But not to the point where the parent is annoyed past a certain normal point, and not to the point the parent is scared of the child. That may see weird but it can happen. Not here. This OP is just annoyed, but fairly badly annoyed, and has herself a sturdy, assertive kid who needs to hear the voice of her father.

So I agree with you.

One treads down the middle.

MagentaYenta

Sun, Apr 12 2015, 11:18 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

If a parent is 'scared' of a 3 year old, it's the parent who has the problem, not the child.

It is quite common for a switch in parental allegiance at this developmental stage. My DD who was primarily parented by her SAHD did the switch of allegiance at about age 3. She went back to equal time at about 3.5.

Dolly Welsh

Sun, Apr 12 2015, 11:21 pm

Yes, they switch.

Being scared of a person who screams critically, all the time, no matter what, can happen, no matter the age of the child, well, almost no matter the age. OP herself who is no slouch is saying she is starting to dread interaction with this kid.

That is exactly how it starts. Bad.

So I wanted it nipped in the bud.

Not in a mean way, but the father needs to state the facts.

MagentaYenta

Sun, Apr 12 2015, 11:34 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

What you want Dolly, may not be in the best interests of someone else and their child rearing standards. It's painfully obvious, that you think that some developmental milestones are kids practicing for a future career as ax murders or con artists.

Parents need to walk away from some behaviors that are normative developmentally. Who really wants to argue with a 3 yo about what they want to wear? Their choices of a miss matched outfit hurt no one. Their resistance to flushing their own poo is simply because it is an extension of themselves and some elemental autonomy they are experiencing. All normative, unless you are a parent that doesn't know any better. This is the learning stage where a parent learns to pick their battles.

chani8

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 4:37 am

I would just add, don't be afraid of the battle. Don't think you have to prevent frustration. She needs to figure out how to cope with stress. Because things wont always go her way. Tantruming is a normal healthy response for a toddler's frustration. Soothe her with a little empathy and help her move on to whatever you want her to do next.

the world's best mom

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 6:59 am

My rule is that I have to win every fight, and therefore, I choose my battles wisely. If I will be tempted to give in when a tantrum comes, then I just say yes in the first place. That's not a battle worth fighting. If it is non-negotiable, then that is a good battle to choose. Also, battles should not involve screaming on my part- the screaming is the toddlers job. My job is to stay calm but firm.

amother

Pink

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 7:59 am

Worlds Best Mom, I think that is the best piece of parenting advice I have ever read! Just brilliant.

amother

Forestgreen

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 3:57 pm

OP. Sorry, this is a long one but I'm trying to be specific

Thanks to all who replied. I totally agree with a lot of the advice given. I try very hard to stay calm and consistent, praise good behavior and give appropriate choices whenever I can. I've been thinking all day how to get at the root of the issue and I think now the tantrums are happening after the fact. Meaning, it's already after a choice has been presented or made that she's getting frustrated and completely loses control.
An example from this afternoon:
lunch was over and it was time to get ready for a nap. In the bathroom she was getting frustrated about me wiping her (she wants to be the only one to do it but isn't quite there yet), upset because her shirt got wet while washing hands and mad when I told her it was time to shut off the water. She handled these minor things ok but then saw that her towel wasn't in the bathroom (it got dirty this morning and I hadn't replaced it yet) had a complete meltdown, refusing to wipe her hands on any other towel, screaming that I needed to get her a new one. *this is one place that I wonder if I made a mistake* The bathroom trip had already been twice as long as usual because of all her little frustrations and I didn't want to take up more time by going to the linen closet for a new towel. I offered her several clean hand towels and told her she could dry on one of them or leave her hands wet. She started crying and screaming her head off. After a few seconds I moved her out of the bathroom, into her room and started getting her changed for her nap. *At this point she was already so out of control that the next 20 minutes were basically her crying and screaming and kicking uncontrollably while half naked in her room* I didn't even know how to handle it at all. I didn't get angry, I just felt at a complete loss. If I came near her, she screamed more. I think she was beyond being talked to. After the first 5 minutes I walked out and left her on her own for 5 minutes. When I came back in she got angrier but I tried to talk her through finishing getting her wet shirt off. After 2 more unproductive minutes I told her that at the count of 5, she was going to take her shirt off or I was. She didn't, so I got it off. At this point she was an exhausted mess and still crying and screaming but I basically "forced" (I wasn't hurting her or anything CHV"SH just didn't try to coax her to do it by herself) her into pajamas and then told her that if she calmed down I would read her the story we always have before nap but if she didn't stop crying, I would just put her in her crib as she was. (reading the story is very important to her). She managed to calm down, I read the story and put her in her crib. She was still a little angry but so tired she went to sleep right away.

I'm not sure where I'm going wrong. I feel like the key in this type of situation that keeps recurring is about managing her frustration more than anything. I don't want to give too much credence to little fits about who I take out of the stroller first (another true example) but I wonder if she feels like I'm brushing it off. Any thoughts? Thanks again if you made it to the end of this Smile

amother

Forestgreen

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 4:01 pm

OP again

In response to some of the earlier posts, I'm not afraid of her and don't dread spending time with her. On the contrary, we will be enjoying some activity or playing nicely but I realize I'm not looking forward to certain transitions because things have been going so well and I know it probably won't last.
I try to give choices but it has to be realistic! It's one thing to give a choice on clothing but if she's getting frustrated at things like how I'm sitting or holding a book or I shut a door to a certain room or didn't make a specific thing for supper, we're talking about something else!

Dolly Welsh

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 4:04 pm

Uh, slightly altered version from upthread:

have her father, her father, not you, carry her around (so happy!) saying repeatedly, "you have to listen to Mooommmommy, you have to listen to Mommy".

Some things are not negotiable no matter how you feel.

You just do have to listen to your Mommy.

You do. She is the one who is going to tell you not to run into the street or stick your finger in the light socket. A child who doesn't listen is not a safe child.

OP you are not hearing. You have not involved your husband yet.

OP you have to brush off her whims. Everybody else is going to.

Give her the respect you give other people: respect but not total obeisance.

If you do give other people obeisance, work on that.

You may simply have an excitable kid, or she may be going through a growth spurt that is hurting somewhere, but tears do not change the moon into green cheese. Facts are still facts.

In a kindly way, you have to get it done. Indeed, you are doing that. But don't feel so guilty.

No, you can't entirely manage her frustration.

Her frustration is her own. Let her have it. It's not your business. If she finds life a little frustrating, she may have her reasons, and don't invalidate that. But she still has to get her shirt off.

You are doing well: you get it done, then you distract and comfort her.

This will work out. You are very caring.

Dolly Welsh

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 4:32 pm

amother wrote:

You are right.

If there isn't a smoothing-out pretty soon, I would get professional help in some way that isn't too solemnly horribly Diagnostic with a big scary capital D.

I am not trying to be scary and I am not saying your child is a psycho, but maybe a little support from someone with a degree in early childhood might be in order.

Your first sentence is self-contradictory.

Your nature may be gentle and sensitive, surely no crime, but if you ignored her frustrations more it might be better.

Focus on what matters. It doesn't matter how you sit or how you hold a book or how you shut a door. It just plain doesn't matter. Maybe she will figure this out as she matures in the coming months.

She may be in a phase of figuring out what does and does not matter. That isn't obvious to one so newly arrived here. She will be taking her cues from you:

When a kid falls and bangs his knee, he looks to the parent for a quick assessment of the situation. How serious is this? Is it an annoying knock that doesn't matter? Should I put my affairs in order because it's fatal? How am I supposed to know? I will look to your expression for how this rates.

Minor? Major? I'm looking to you.

Hugs.

PAMOM

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 5:10 pm

The answer to every problem just isn't Daddy. In msny households, the daddy isn't home much and whether he says,"listen to Mommy" or not, Mommy is still going to be the object of "No's."
OP, this all sounds pretty normal to me. Some kids really have trouble with transitions. Sometimes it helps to start telling them what's coming next way before it comes do they can be prepared. Sometimes it helps to change for a nap before lunch. And sometimes you just need to wait 6 months while doing exactly as you did. I know you worry that you could have handled it better, but it sounds like you did just fine. I'm the first to agree that a troubled kid needs help, but to quote a friend, childhood is not pathology. Your child sounds pretty normal and age appropriate to me.

amother

Forestgreen

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 5:16 pm

OP

Thanks for the kind thoughts, Dolly. PAmom, I really appreciate your advice! I sort of feel like I might just need to wait this out but want to be as proactive as possible. Getting back to routine after Pesach should help, I hope.

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