My kid doesn't get the concept of consequences

amother

Slateblue

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 7:48 am

My son three and I've been told to give him consequences for his behavior (or misbehavior).
But I'm realizing that he doesn't get it at all. Or so it seems?
For example -
Last night I put him to sleep. Normally there are no fights about sleep schedule. He knows he has to go and we do it calmly and nicely with a song etc. But lately he started resisting ( I think he has grown and needs a later bed time so we have been adjusting his bed time).
So I put him to bed and he screams and cries which wakes the baby up so I tell him : I will sit with you and tell you a story but right after that you must try to fall asleep. He agrees ( another story is a special treat!) but then when I'm done he's back to crying.
Is this too mature of a 'deal' for his age?

Or we made up a rule in the house that if he hits the baby ( which he does a LOT) he gets time out at his room ( counts till 5 then I ask him if he's ready to behave). He doesn't get it at all!

Really any type of consequence. For any sort of behavior.
Is he too young? Am I doing it wrong ?

I feel like such a failure. I don't know how to be machanech my child at all!
( other then gve him lots of love and hugs and encouragement ).

SRS

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 8:05 am

Counting until 5 doesn't sounds much like a consequence. I know that when we had certain behavioral problems the book reading experts insisted we were making one particular kid spend too much time in a back room (there is some rule of 1 minute for each year old), but a longer time away worked and so that was that. I'd recommend that if he hits the baby you tell him to go to his room and stay there until you call him out and then wait at least 10 minutes while he calms down and chills out a bit. Don't ask if he is ready to behave. Be more specific. "Are you ready to play in the living room without hitting baby Sarah?"

It is way too early to say you can't mechanech your child. You have barely scratched the surface. Regarding bedtime, we are still figuring it out and will probably never master it, so you have me there.

Scrabble123

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 8:17 am

Well, you're reinforcing his misbehavior through rewarding him with treats (a second story) when he screams. If reading a story is standard, read him the story when you put him to sleep, wait with him, make sure he knows he is secure and he feels secure and also that screaming is not acceptable. Learn about sleep training in a loving way, and how to reinforce healthy sleeping habits without making your child feel alone and afraid, but when he screams, reading him another story to pacify him just teaches him that the more he screams the more likely he is to get another.. and another story. A consequence for screaming at night would be no story the following night not another story the same night. You can still wait with him a few minutes in the room and you must make sure he's secure, but he doesn't need a story to feel safe and loved, but of course you can come up with your own consequence - it just seemed more directly related to sleep time.

amother

Slateblue

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 8:47 am

Thanks so much for responding!
You're right about telling him another story - I did that because we are in a growing stage and I wasnt sure he was tired enough at that time but I see now that it doesnt make sense. The problem about it is that he cries and screams and wakes the baby up and then it's a real party in the house Sad

Bed time used to be my pride and now its become my nightmare.

But generally speaking-
Let's say today in the bath. He asked to stay longer which I was fine with but I told him that once mommy says the water is cold he has to come out without crying. Of course he cried when I finally took him out. Am I being too complicated for him? Is this concept of IF-THEN too mature for his age ?

About time out - because he wasn't getting the concept I thought 3 min (one per year) would be too long . When I did try that, he lost it completely ( shrieking and screaming- I thought it was over the top and went down to counting to five.
I'm going to try the 3 mins tomorrow after Discussing it with him.

I just feel like all the usual methods I read and hear of don't work with him .
Oh another one - charts! He doesn't get them at all. When we toilet trained him I made his a chart with stickers and put it on the fridge. The kid wasnt cooperating at all. does it make sense?

Thanks for the help! I know I'm being a bit all over the place and I appreciate the kind replies.

LittleDucky

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 8:53 am

Consequences at this age especially have to be immediate (they don't get time) and the cause-effect be clear. If he hits the baby, immediately get up, hold his hands so he can't hit and say, "because you hit baby you are not going to be able to play near her. Time out for X minutes". If he comes out early, repeat and say, your time out is starting again because you came out. Coming out on your own doesn't make it pass faster". When time is up, take him out, say "I love you a lot but if you hit, you will go back in time out. Are you ready to play nicely and not hurt others?" (repeating the cause-effect).

morah

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 9:02 am

I think you're giving him too little credit. He should be able to understand. I guess if you haven't taught him much cause and effect until now, then he needs to learn and won't get it the first time. But kids this age do get it. And it doesn't have to be immediate either at this point, though it should be close (ex: trouble at bathtime can have consequences for bedtim but not for the next morning, that would be too long a gap). You will have to follow through even though the first few times he will push back really hard. But after those few times, he will learn the deal and that you mean business.

amother

Slateblue

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 9:13 am

LittleDucky wrote:

Thanks that was really clear. I'm going to do exactly that next time it happens!

amother

Slateblue

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 9:15 am

morah wrote:

Thank you! This is exactly what I was trying to figure out - whether at his age he had to understand it or if it was possible he just wasn't there yet. Now that I know he CAN understand I will be able to feel more confident and follow through.

imasinger

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 9:46 am

The most effective route to changing and shaping behavior is by consequences. Good consequences.

Rather than paying attention to misbehavior, one does best to ignore it, but to reward right behavior with much fanfare.

So, if a kid goes to bed and right to sleep, greet him in the morning with warm words of praise, and perhaps, an activity he finds rewarding. If he plays gently with baby, same thing. Comes out of the bath quietly, ditto.

If he hits baby, tme outs are best assigned to a place with no stimulation, like a corner. Use a timer to monitor length. I use a sand timer on Shabbos. For my taste, one minute per year is too long; I find 30 seconds per year is good. But that's JMO. Time outs are with no talking, nothing. They should be quiet and boring. Going straight to time out and doing it nicely should be rewarded with praise, and no further lecture on the provocative behavior.

Which still leaves you with the problem of what to do if he wakes the baby.

I say, let him. Just ignore the screams and cries, and pay him no attention after you say good night.

Why am I suggesting "torturing" an innocent baby? Because losing out at bedtime for a night or two buys everyone a saner life in the long run than negotiating with a misbehaving kid. After a few nights, 3 year old learns that tantrums at bedtime won't get him more books, and he'll knock it off.

Stand firm, mama. And if he cries when bathtime is over, let him. The lesson here is that he cooperate with rules, not that he has to love them.

amother

Slateblue

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 1:22 pm

imasinger wrote:

Thanks that's great advice.
Re the bolded.
That is for sure the number one advice I've gotten ever and I use it daily. I focus on the good and ignore (as much as possible) the bad. I find it to be good advice but many times the bad is BAD (hitting for example) and then ignoring it just won't do.
Re greeting my son in the morning- that's what I'm asking about! because it seems that it doesn't work with him . He won't "get" that there's a connection unless it's immediate. Any time I tried to connect an immediate behaviour to a later consequence he refused. I'm going to try again tomorrow and see how it works.
And tonight I let him cry though it bothered the baby (I couldn't ignore baby though, I hope this doesn't become his new routine now:)).

Thanks again...I'm going to read all the advice again tomorrow, a few times and implement it.

Dolly Welsh

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 5:33 pm

"He won't "get" that there's a connection unless it's immediate. "

This seems to be the way it is with most people and even animals most of the time. It must be now if it's going to be anything at all.

If at all humanly possible, do not let him physically at all near the baby for a few months until he can learn not to hit the baby. Cage one or the other of them. There are cribs and playpens for caging. It doesn't matter which of them is inside the cage. And the cage is transparent, you and they can see through it. But don't let him near.

We cannot have people hitting the baby. You don't want a difficult younger child, obviously.

seeker

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 7:21 pm

I think what you're describing is fairly normal but also a lack of training. Of course the child cries when given a consequence or having to do what he doesn't like, e.g. come out of the bath. If you have been very consistent with appropriate consequences and he is still screaming as if it's the first time, I would say maybe something's wrong. But it sounds from here (could be not the full picture, I don't know) like you're the one who is unsure and hesitant and therefore the child is not getting a clear message.

Agree with PP who say counting to 5 is not a time out. Counting to 5 is not even enough time to cool down. Whether you're trying to apply punishment or just removing him from the situation, counting to 5 does neither. Try 2 minutes to start with, and they'd better be good minutes (e.g. if he is kicking, screaming, and running away, the 2 minutes haven't started yet)

Bedtime is a recurring struggle in many homes, as far as I can tell, every time you think you've mastered it they change the game. But here's one idea: Don't give the reward before the behavior ("I will read the book if you will be quiet AFTER") but reward small amounts of the desired behavior after it is done. For example, "You stay in bed quietly for 10 minutes (obviously adjust and gradually increase as appropriate to your child) and THEN I will come [do something small, not a whole book that will wake him up again, but something like sit with him for a minute, give him a sticker, whatever]"

FranticFrummie

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 8:20 pm

If you have Netflix, I HIGHLY suggest you watch "Nanny 911". I've learned so much from watching the parenting techniques. Sometimes just the tiniest adjustments in how you say or do things can add up to make a huge difference in your life.

If you don't have Netflix, I'd even say go buy the series on Amazon. It's really worth it (and you won't feel so bad about your own kids, when you see what these nannies have to deal with!)

chani8

Tue, Apr 14 2015, 12:06 am

Keep him far away from the baby so that you don't increase conflict by having to punish him, and frankly, you don't punish with a time out for hitting the baby anyway. Move the baby away from the child. Then learn how to decrease sibling jealousy, which is a separate topic.

The issue isn't consequences, it's about boundaries. Stay with the child until he settles down and goes to sleep. It can take up to an hour, but that's life. Eventually the child trusts that you will be there and he'll go to sleep much faster. This age is different than the CIO stage of a baby. Three year olds don't need to CIO at bedtime, they need mommy nearby.

What you would apply about CIO method is the part about sitting there without engaging the child. No reading more books, no talking. You need to explain what you are doing, of course, that you are going to stay with him while he falls asleep. The only boundary is that he lay in bed. It may require, "lay down and I'll stay here" or the outright threat of, "lay down or I'm leaving the room." You may have to follow through once or twice until he 'gets it'. Leave for only a minute or so.

You'll never regret sitting there. It solves all bed time issues, ime. I can hear you saying, but what am I supposed to do about the baby during all that time?! Once you've done your regular routine of book reading and talking, and are at the just sitting there part, you can bring baby in, just not if she's being distracting. Let DH take care of her if that's the case. Or let him be the one to sit with the child. These days, with iphones, 'sitting there' shouldn't be as boring as it was for me.

amother

Slateblue

Tue, Apr 14 2015, 11:13 am

seeker wrote:

Thank you. I agree with everything you wrote. I realized today that I'm being too inconsistent because I'm always unsure and doubting myself.
Regarding the bolded that's so true. Definitely a mistake of mine. I've been very self aware today and realized that I do that all the time and it's a mistake.
So tonight at bed time I told my son that if he goes to sleep nicely, no crying, he will get a treat tomorrow. He was very exhausted and I was very sure of myself and somehow it worked. No crying.
So thanks everybody! I need to learn to implement all this...

amother

Slateblue

Tue, Apr 14 2015, 11:14 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

Thanks for the idea! Found it on youtube... going to watch.

amother

Slateblue

Tue, Apr 14 2015, 11:19 am

chani8 wrote:

The baby isn't young enough to be put away Smile

and DS had many months to get used to his new baby sibling. He's just an extremply jealous kid who needs a ton of attention (which I totally get and I give it to him).

I usually totally agree with you chani but this time, maybe first time, I don't. I think sitting next to him, just because he demands it is wrong. I used to do it and it was a nightmare. He would cry when waking up in the middleof the night becuase he would want us there.

amother

Slateblue

Tue, Apr 14 2015, 11:28 am

Dolly Welsh wrote:

There's no way to keep them completly seperated. I do try though. They each have their own playing space. But jealousy is stronger than it all. DS loves the baby just doesn't know exactly how to show it and how to deal with my time being shared between them.
Thanks!