All Who Go Do Not Return

marina

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 12:51 pm

So. Who here has read this book? Want to talk about it? I loved it. It lacked the drama and hyperbole of previous OTD memoirs and the author spoke honestly about his failings and what he misses about his old world and what he regrets. I am also fascinated by it because he went OTD purely for intellectual reasons. No one abused him, no one molested him, his parents didn't get divorced, etc.

Here are some interesting excerpts and links about this book:

http://forward.com/articles/21.....p=all

http://www.jta.org/2015/04/08/.....ldren

Your thoughts?

abby1776

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 1:29 pm

In Frimit Goldberger's Forward review it says:

Deen grew up in Brooklyn’s Boro Park, the largest ultra-Orthodox community in America, to parents who were baalei teshuva, returnees to the faith. Raised by a father with humanistic leanings, whose excessive devotion to God and mankind, and neglect of his physical needs, eventually put him on his deathbed, and a crunchy-granola, non-conformist mother — Deen never quite fit into the Hasidic community. His father was not a Hasid of any particular living rabbi, yet he believed, quite fervently, in the mystical teachings of the late Hasidic greats. As a young boy, Deen felt like an outsider in his own cheder, the Hasidic all-boys school he attended, thanks, in part, to his father’s indifference to Hasidic convention. Of his own volition, Deen joined the Skverers, Hasidim of the Skver sect, whose epicenter is in New Square, New York — a small, insular and entirely isolated enclave in upstate New York — and whose rebbe, the supreme leader, rules with an iron fist. Deen felt that the rigidity of New Square was precisely what he needed to find a sense of order in his life.

Read more: http://forward.com/articles/21.....DMtBX

I did not read the book. But he never fit into the New Square Community - his parents are BT and its not the same thing as someone whose parents, and grandparents, and great grandparents and all their aunts and uncles grew up in New Square and decided intellectually that he didn't want to be Chassidish or religious.

abby1776

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 1:39 pm

marina wrote:

His parents are not that BT... but I don't know how much it matters. He went to those schools, he got married through that system, he believed everything they did.

Why do you make a distinction?

Because - if you read imamother - many people do make that distinction - in shidduchim, in relationships, - a New Square shadchan isn't going to set up a "real" chassidish girl from New Square with someone whose parents aren't from New Square or are BT. He chose to live in New Square and then he chose not to. Its not the same as someone who was raised in New Square and whose family goes back for generations.

gp2.0

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 1:39 pm

marina wrote:

His parents are not that BT... but I don't know how much it matters. He went to those schools, he got married through that system, he believed everything they did.

Why do you make a distinction?

I think it does matter - not because he was "less chassidish" or whatever, but because he was exposed to several different viewpoints, he was able to become a critical thinker and eventually see the glaring holes in the society that some people either don't see or blithely ignore.

abby1776

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 1:41 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

gp2.0 said it better than I could

Barbara

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 1:51 pm

marina wrote:

Thanks for the recommendation. Based on your recommendation, I've now read interviews and reviews, and it certainly looks interesting. I've places it in my Amazon cart, where its waiting for me to add a toaster and place my order.

amother

Silver

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 2:15 pm

I couldn't put it down. It was so chilling, the way his thoughts in the transitional phase reflect so many of my own thoughts. It really scared me. It showed me that my journey is real, and I might one day end up like him. I don't want to rip my beautiful life apart. All in all its a great book that's giving me nightmares.

debsey

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 3:36 pm

From the Forward review:
Is there anything besides your children that you miss about the Hasidic community?
I miss the holidays – the first two years after I left, on holidays I’d be completely torn up. Holidays in the Hasidish world, families in the Hasidish world, celebrating happy things – those are beautiful times. I have no animosity towards the Hasidic community as a collective. I have tremendous affection and sympathy for what they’re trying to do. They’re trying to preserve a cherished worldview within a world that is very hostile to it. I disagree with the degree to which choice is taken away from individuals in the service of that, but I understand it.

He is framing this as a clash between individualism and collectivism. I find that interesting. I hope the book lives up to that promise of an intellectual exploration of what caused him to leave, rather than just the "look, I was Orthodox and now I've had thirty-two boyfriends and ate pork!" type book that I've grown sick of.

Personally, I'd like to read this book as a manual for how to allow for individuality within a Charedi context. If we better understand the mindset of the Shulem Deens of this world, we can adjust our parenting to account for it.

I know many will disagree with my view, on both sides of this debate (WHAT! There IS no ability to deal with individualism in charedi Judaism. It's just BAD, BAD, BAD becuause Charedim are so judgemental vs. WHAT! There is nothing good that can be learned from an oisvarf like Shulem Deen. His book is pure apikorsus and should be burned at the stake!) I look forward to reading it.

sourstix

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 3:47 pm

debsey you touched on some things here that actually is quit good, in the way that "what can we learn from this?" its sad to say tho that so many in our circles have questions that rabbanim arent willing to answer or even think about it and say to the person they have valid questions and they wont take the time to think about it. just make you feel bad, and your an apikores. I havent read the book but if this is it. what a shame. cause there are many that stay with all the questions and life continues to be misery. some just come to the conclusion that thats what they need to live with. waiting for mashiach to arrive and redeem us from all the questions. I definitely cant read this book as I am exposed to someone with so many questions its enough for me. but I would love to hear what his intellectual issues were.

amother

Silver

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 4:31 pm

amother wrote:

I put it on hold on Brooklyn Public Library e-books.

I want to read it as Debsey said to learn from his experiences but if it is a book of why he doesn't believe then I don't know if I should read it.

So for those who read read it which is it?

He details The proccess, and talks about some of the books he read. But he doesn't actually delve into the theological issues that much. Maybe a sentence here and there sprinkled throughout the book. He focuses mostly on his actions, others reactions, and his feelings.

debsey

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 4:50 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

See, I have a problem with this false dichotomy. WADR, because I find your posts generally thoughtful (and I can't argue with the TARDIS)! I don't see this as a dichotomy - one can be Chassidish and a critical thinker. I consider myself charedi and I am a critical thinker. He is a critical thinker AND he decided chassidus is not for him. Do you see the distinction I am trying to draw? I think people like Rebbetzin Tziporah Heller, Rebbetzin Feigy Twerski, or Rabbi Akiva Tatz are pretty good at critical thinking...........

abby1776

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 4:55 pm

debsey wrote:

Rebbetzin Tziporah Heller, Rebbetzin Feigy Twerski, or Rabbi Akiva Tatz all had background were they were exposed to different opinions and different types of people, literature, education. Similar to Shulem Deem and not similar to your average 4th generation resident of New Square.

debsey

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 5:00 pm

abby1776 wrote:

I know plenty of very articulate Bais Yakov girls who are excellent critical thinkers. There are Chassidish lawyers who I have met who are quite sophisticated in their reasoning. It is NOT either/or. I would argue that being exposed to some secular education and then choosing to be charedi demonstrates a lot of ability to wrestle with ambiguity and to think through issues.

Maya

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 5:04 pm

debsey wrote:

It's not a false dichotomy.Charedi is not Chassidish. Being Charedi does not mean that you have anything in common with people from the Chassidish communities of New Square or Satmar or similar. People who use their critical thinking skills can't have success in the communities I mentioned, because the culture of those demands absolute deference to authority with no room for personal decision making or individuality. This is the exact reason why both my husband and I have had difficulty in the community from the time we were kids.

Last edited by Maya on Mon, Apr 13 2015, 5:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

ora_43

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 5:06 pm

marina wrote:

The excerpt makes it sound just like the drama and hyperbole type memoir. Not over-dramatized per se, but just focused on the dramatic bad aspects of extreme-chassidic life (rebbes hitting students! rebbes cheating the government!). Is most of the book not like that?

Is the book one you'd recommend in general, like, to a Christian living in North Dakota? Or is it interesting mostly to people interested in an insider's view of frum/OTD/New York life?

amother

Aubergine

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 5:07 pm

amother wrote:

thanks I'll read it then.