Home
Log in / Sign Up
    Private Messages   Advanced Search   Rules   New User Guide   FAQ   Advertise   Contact Us  
Forum -> Interesting Discussions
All Who Go Do Not Return
  Previous  1  2  3 23 24  25  26  Next



Post new topic   Reply to topic View latest: 24h 48h 72h

5mom




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 12 2015, 2:52 am
ven wrote:
Free will and a mind of your own is nipped in the butt.


The expression is "nipped in the bud," though your version is much more picturesque.
Back to top

ven




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 12 2015, 2:56 am
5mom wrote:
The expression is "nipped in the bud," though your version is much more picturesque.


Confused Sorry not native english LOL
Back to top

happybeingamom




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 12 2015, 8:48 am
marina wrote:
He very very clearly did not realize he would lose his children over the religion thing. He thought they would just work it out- because he was naive. Read more here http://tabletmag.com/jewish-ne.....rents

And although it's normal for the New Square community -apparently- to alienate nonfrum parents, it is objectively completely immoral and almost evil. And it doesn't make it any better to say,"well, hey, what do you expect it's New Square and his daughters probably felt betrayed blah blah blah" That's like saying, yeah so sad that the girl got herself honor-killed, but it's normal for that community, and yeah, her family probably felt betrayed.


To take away a child from a parent? To make the child hate the parent? Who does that? You know who does that? A woman who is married to a child rapist or an abuser. That's who takes the child away and never lets the father see the child again. Not a woman whose husband chooses to eat treife food or drive on saturday.

Just like you wouldn't alienate yourself from a child that went off the derech, you can't alienate the child from a parent who did that. Parental relationships do not depend on whether everyone in the triangle keeps shabbos and kashrus, do they?

And the other way too- if your spouse becomes religious and you divorce him and alienate the children because dad is now a religious fanatic who won't even drive on saturday- that is just as wrong and evil.

Gitty could have easily - but for her oppressive community - let the children see their father once a week. A sleepover on Wednesday night. He kept kosher in his home for their sake, did you know that? Okay, you don't want a sleepover, ok, just spend Sunday afternoons together. No. She couldn't do that. You know why? Because she has to make him out to be some big bad [non jew] in her children's eyes so they won't go off the derech too, so that means... he can't see them at all. Not every Sunday. Not every other Sunday. Not one Sunday a month for two hours. Not at all. Never.

Why are you defending that behavior? Why?


I am understanding the deep sense of betrayal that she most probably felt.

She had certain expectations when she got married, how she would raise her children, how her marriage would be. This is what she wanted and felt it was important. As Deen kept changing he expected her to just accept it, let him do what he wanted in the home even though she repeatedly told him no, I don't want this in my home. She kept on giving in for the things she knew about, forget about the things he did behind her back like the birth control psak.

Now here you have a woman who according to her beliefs will feel (and I am sure the people in her community encouraged it) that the best thing for her children, their neshamos, their Olam Haba is not to do what their father does.

The problem with Deen he still doesn't get it. He writes in his book he couldn't understand why Gitty was upset when he gave the children machine matzoh because he ran out of hand matzoh on Pesach. He wrote, I used it when we were married, so why is she upset now. This clearly showed to me how he really did not understand that during the marriage that Gitty did things she did not want to do to keep the marriage and the relationship. He failed to comprehend that once she was no longer married to him she had zero incentive to compromise or look the other way anymore. Once she was divorced her only concern would be what is best for the children and him doing things contrary to the customs that she wants her children to keep meant he was negative influence.

In regards to writing about their personal bedroom life, you can say he needed to put this in to explain his story. If you go to his website he a link of his articles and writings. He posted on a website in 2010 "His First Time". The website that he posted on has a section were people upload their first experience. Was that respectful to Gitty? How would you feel as a wife or ex wife if that was done to you.

Honestly I empathize with Gitty even though I am not a Chassidista and could never live or comprehend her lifestyle. I am a wife and mother though and I would never wanted to be treated the way she was by Deen. I can't imagine any women would.

I don't think Deen really comprehends how he treated Gitty in the marriage, the humiliation she had in her community because of his choices that he coerced her to go along with until she couldn't anymore.

It is a sad story which Deen orchestrated because he was clueless about the give and take in a marital relationship. As I said I don't feel he was malicious just that he never learned how to interact or treat a wife.
Back to top

PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 12 2015, 9:38 am
octopus wrote:
see this is the litvish mentality. exactly how pinkfridge said. people with a chassidishe background will sound exactly like sourstix. It's just a different mentality.


One thing though: I'm hesitant to label but yeshivish Litvish people will ask a lot of shailos, and have a great deal of respect for their rabbanim, and hold aseh lecha rav as an ideal. (Yes, I'm painting a rose-colored picture. We're still in galus so it's not getting any better, but there are people who live with integrity, whose life stories inspire, just inspire, not inspire cynicism. I'm describing the type of chinuch I hope to have given my children.)
Back to top

wifenmother




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 12 2015, 10:33 am
happybeingamom wrote:
I am understanding the deep sense of betrayal that she most probably felt.

She had certain expectations when she got married, how she would raise her children, how her marriage would be. This is what she wanted and felt it was important. As Deen kept changing he expected her to just accept it, let him do what he wanted in the home even though she repeatedly told him no, I don't want this in my home. She kept on giving in for the things she knew about, forget about the things he did behind her back like the birth control psak.

Now here you have a woman who according to her beliefs will feel (and I am sure the people in her community encouraged it) that the best thing for her children, their neshamos, their Olam Haba is not to do what their father does.

The problem with Deen he still doesn't get it. He writes in his book he couldn't understand why Gitty was upset when he gave the children machine matzoh because he ran out of hand matzoh on Pesach. He wrote, I used it when we were married, so why is she upset now. This clearly showed to me how he really did not understand that during the marriage that Gitty did things she did not want to do to keep the marriage and the relationship. He failed to comprehend that once she was no longer married to him she had zero incentive to compromise or look the other way anymore. Once she was divorced her only concern would be what is best for the children and him doing things contrary to the customs that she wants her children to keep meant he was negative influence.

In regards to writing about their personal bedroom life, you can say he needed to put this in to explain his story. If you go to his website he a link of his articles and writings. He posted on a website in 2010 "His First Time". The website that he posted on has a section were people upload their first experience. Was that respectful to Gitty? How would you feel as a wife or ex wife if that was done to you.

Honestly I empathize with Gitty even though I am not a Chassidista and could never live or comprehend her lifestyle. I am a wife and mother though and I would never wanted to be treated the way she was by Deen. I can't imagine any women would.

I don't think Deen really comprehends how he treated Gitty in the marriage, the humiliation she had in her community because of his choices that he coerced her to go along with until she couldn't anymore.

It is a sad story which Deen orchestrated because he was clueless about the give and take in a marital relationship. As I said I don't feel he was malicious just that he never learned how to interact or treat a wife.


So well said!

Drives home the point once again that the stilted interactions six months into his marriage described in the excerpt is not the kind of relationship your average chasidish couple has at that point in their marriage.
Back to top

Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 12 2015, 11:45 am
Very well said, happybeingamom.

I think he was missing interpersonal skills and understanding that are so crucial to a marriage.

I remember once seeing an article in Mishpacha, I think it was by Sarah Chana Radcliffe, and she wrote about couples who get divorced years into their marriage, and the spouse not wanting the divorce is in shock and didn't see it coming. She said often the other spouse was giving in, over and over and over, and the "taking" spouse does not realize at all what it's costing the "giving" spouse, and they think everything's fine now, I got what I want.

She was giving a piece of her soul over and over and over, and he didn't realize it. She has all that anger and resentment and hurt stored up inside of her, and now she has just had it.

I'm not saying it's right...it is what it is. In a divorce, the degree of hurt surfaces, and the results are not pretty.
Back to top

amother
Saddlebrown


 

Post Fri, Jun 12 2015, 12:20 pm
ITA. After reading the book I felt that Deen was ultimately a selfish person who wanted to have his cake and eat it too. He had to have understood how his pursuit of things that were anathema to his wife and family would upset them and lead to strife and ultimate dissolution. I sympathized with his ex. She clearly went so far out of her comfort zone to make a marriage work including moving away from her relatives with a man who didn't make close to the same effort with her. He was just focused on what he wanted. Then, when the divorce and his complete change of lifestyle came about, he was surprised that his kids weren't thrilled to keep spending time with him In his new capacity. And I don't think their mom poisoned them. It sounds like a lot of that came from the community and themselves. They probably feel he abandoned them. Like I said he was upset he couldn't have his cake and eat it too.
Back to top

5mom




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 12 2015, 12:24 pm
Bear in mind that he wrote the book and chose to include events showing his wife in a good light and him in a bad one. That takes a certain amount of brutal honesty. This doesn't make him right about everything, not by a long shot, but it does say something about his integrity.
Back to top

marina




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 12 2015, 1:02 pm
Tablepoetry wrote:
I agree that there is no justification to destroying the children's relationship with their father.
I haven't read the book/blog, but I actually don't understand how it was possible to deny him visitation. Unless he did have visitation, but she so poisoned them against him that they didn't want to go?

I still think it's wrong and immoral to publish your bedroom secrets with your ex-wife for all the world to see. The covenant between husband and wife is that these things are forever private. Deen smashed that covenant to pieces.

That said, if I compare sins, yes it's worse to alienate your kids from their (caring, decent) father forever, than to kiss-and-tell.


Yes that's what happened. He writes about it in that tablet link and a few other places. Heart wrenching.
Back to top

marina




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 12 2015, 1:17 pm
happybeingamom wrote:
I am understanding the deep sense of betrayal that she most probably felt.

She had certain expectations when she got married, how she would raise her children, how her marriage would be. This is what she wanted and felt it was important. As Deen kept changing he expected her to just accept it, let him do what he wanted in the home even though she repeatedly told him no, I don't want this in my home. She kept on giving in for the things she knew about, forget about the things he did behind her back like the birth control psak.

Now here you have a woman who according to her beliefs will feel (and I am sure the people in her community encouraged it) that the best thing for her children, their neshamos, their Olam Haba is not to do what their father does.

The problem with Deen he still doesn't get it. He writes in his book he couldn't understand why Gitty was upset when he gave the children machine matzoh because he ran out of hand matzoh on Pesach. He wrote, I used it when we were married, so why is she upset now. This clearly showed to me how he really did not understand that during the marriage that Gitty did things she did not want to do to keep the marriage and the relationship. He failed to comprehend that once she was no longer married to him she had zero incentive to compromise or look the other way anymore. Once she was divorced her only concern would be what is best for the children and him doing things contrary to the customs that she wants her children to keep meant he was negative influence.

In regards to writing about their personal bedroom life, you can say he needed to put this in to explain his story. If you go to his website he a link of his articles and writings. He posted on a website in 2010 "His First Time". The website that he posted on has a section were people upload their first experience. Was that respectful to Gitty? How would you feel as a wife or ex wife if that was done to you.

Honestly I empathize with Gitty even though I am not a Chassidista and could never live or comprehend her lifestyle. I am a wife and mother though and I would never wanted to be treated the way she was by Deen. I can't imagine any women would.

I don't think Deen really comprehends how he treated Gitty in the marriage, the humiliation she had in her community because of his choices that he coerced her to go along with until she couldn't anymore.

It is a sad story which Deen orchestrated because he was clueless about the give and take in a marital relationship. As I said I don't feel he was malicious just that he never learned how to interact or treat a wife.


In short, you are defending her because according to her beliefs, her children's father was a negative influence. And so she had every right to alienate them from him? Really? There is no more objectivity in this at all?

If an ex husband gives the kids sugary snacks and lets them watch tv, is the wife justified in alienating them from their father? Even if she wholeheartedly believes this is a negative influence?

What if dad decides to become a religious Jew and mom wholeheartedly believes this is a cult and a negative influence? Does that justify alienating her children from their father?

What if dad decides to let baby cry it out when he cares for her, and the mom thinks that's a terrible horrible negative influence?

What if dad decides to put the kids in daycare on his days while he goes to work and mom thinks daycare is a negative influence?

Are all these valid justifications for depriving a child of his father and vice versa?

At what point do you say- geez, lady what is wrong with you? You didn't sign up for this, but none of us get what we signed up for. It's worse for your kids to lose their dad and think him an evil person than for them to eventually figure out that when they are not there, he goes out to eat nonkosher food. At what point does common sense take over?


Last edited by marina on Fri, Jun 12 2015, 1:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top

marina




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 12 2015, 1:20 pm
wifenmother wrote:
So well said!

Drives home the point once again that the stilted interactions six months into his marriage described in the excerpt is not the kind of relationship your average chasidish couple has at that point in their marriage.


I don't understand why people keep harping on this. Shulem never stated that he represents all chassidim or all new skver pple or anything remotely similar. He is telling his life story. The end. You want to complain about how atypical he is and how he doesn't represent the klal, go for it. It makes no difference.

And why not do a poll asking how many women here on imamother had awkward stilted interactions 6 months into their marriages? You might be surprised.
Back to top

marina




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 12 2015, 1:38 pm
amother wrote:
ITA. After reading the book I felt that Deen was ultimately a selfish person who wanted to have his cake and eat it too. He had to have understood how his pursuit of things that were anathema to his wife and family would upset them and lead to strife and ultimate dissolution. I sympathized with his ex. She clearly went so far out of her comfort zone to make a marriage work including moving away from her relatives with a man who didn't make close to the same effort with her. He was just focused on what he wanted. Then, when the divorce and his complete change of lifestyle came about, he was surprised that his kids weren't thrilled to keep spending time with him In his new capacity. And I don't think their mom poisoned them. It sounds like a lot of that came from the community and themselves. They probably feel he abandoned them. Like I said he was upset he couldn't have his cake and eat it too.


When you marry someone, at age 18, you don't sign up to be the same person for the rest of your life. Or to live with the same person for the rest of your life.

You don't sign up for losing your kids if you change. Life shouldn't be: (1) you lose your children or (2) you remain trapped in a system that doesn't work for you.

It is like that, now, but Shulem didn't know that. From his experience, many otd people have learned. There are now many no-longer-believing parents staying with their frum spouses for one reason only: because they are petrified that they will end up like Shulem if they leave, scared that they will lose the most important thing to them. Is that what you want? You like that outcome? Literally forcing people into religious observance? There is no way out for them.

And before anyone suggests this- NO, I don't think its better for the kids to have a mom/dad faking their Judaism and their marriage just so they won't be alienated from the kids. I think it's better for the kids to see parents that respect each other even though they've gone their separate ways and both love the kids and both spend time with them.

And I totally fail to understand why that wasn't theoretically possible here. The community (mom is just their puppet) poisoned his kids against them and why? What for? Why can't they be civil about this? Hey you live with your mom and you see your dad on Sunday afternoons for a trip to the ice cream store and yes, your parents are different in yiddishkeit but they still love you and that's ok.

The only reason possible is that their faith is so weak. They are petrified that if their children are exposed to anyone different or any unique situations, they will reject everything.
Back to top

gp2.0




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 12 2015, 1:44 pm
Yes marina that is the reason. They are afraid if their children see that their father can be non-observant and happy and still a good man, they will drop religion like a hot potato and follow in his footsteps. It's very hard to teach children that the world is full of good and bad people, and some people choose to be religious while others don't, because you take the risk that your child will make the choice not to be religious and who wants to deal with that? Rolling Eyes Much much easier to tell the kids that all non Jews are bad including their father who is no longer frum, and not have to deal with questions and doubts.
Back to top

marina




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 12 2015, 1:45 pm
Quote:
Was that respectful to Gitty? How would you feel as a wife or ex wife if that was done to you.


Seriously? Imagine this. You go on a business trip, you come back and find that your husband has taken the kids and moved to another country. He told them that you were evil and he needed to protect you from them. As a result, you will likely never see your kids again.

Don't continue reading. Just sit back and imagine that actually happening to you. Let the outrage flood you for a minute.

How concerned are you going to be about being respectful to their dad? How worried are you going to be about protecting his reputation publicly?

Just the very fact that Shulem is so restrained is noteworthy by itself.


Last edited by marina on Fri, Jun 12 2015, 1:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top

Maya




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 12 2015, 1:46 pm
Excellent posts, marina.
Back to top

marina




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 12 2015, 1:53 pm
Chayalle wrote:
Very well said, happybeingamom.

I think he was missing interpersonal skills and understanding that are so crucial to a marriage.

I remember once seeing an article in Mishpacha, I think it was by Sarah Chana Radcliffe, and she wrote about couples who get divorced years into their marriage, and the spouse not wanting the divorce is in shock and didn't see it coming. She said often the other spouse was giving in, over and over and over, and the "taking" spouse does not realize at all what it's costing the "giving" spouse, and they think everything's fine now, I got what I want.

She was giving a piece of her soul over and over and over, and he didn't realize it. She has all that anger and resentment and hurt stored up inside of her, and now she has just had it.

I'm not saying it's right...it is what it is. In a divorce, the degree of hurt surfaces, and the results are not pretty.


I know. He wanted to listen to the radio news after everyone was in bed and she had to give away a piece of her soul for that. He wanted her not to go through his credit cards receipts spying on where he ate what. She had to give away a piece of her soul for that. He wanted not to have more children than he could afford. She had to give away a piece of her soul for that.

It's a wonder, Chayalle, that she had any soul left after all that generosity.
Back to top

marina




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 12 2015, 1:58 pm
from this interview: http://therumpus.net/2015/05/t.....deen/

Quote:
I wanted to give the book a happy ending, but I realized it doesn’t have one. Now I don’t see any of my children. The youngest boy is thirteen. He no longer wants to come to visits anymore. I found freedom, but what did I lose? If I knew I was going to lose my children, would I have wanted this freedom? I would have tried to do things differently.

There is always the hope that I’ll reconnect with my children, but there is no possibility that I will ever get their childhood back. I’ll never have them as children again. That’s gone.

My oldest daughter has been married for two years. I wasn’t invited to the wedding. I spent the night of the wedding crying. I may never have a connection with this daughter.

Gitty and I had no legal binding agreement. I had no idea that the legal ramifications over custody could be so devastating.



and the last lines from here: http://www.theguardian.com/wor.....-york

Quote:
“If I knew I was going to lose them, I would not have left. It’s like saying you would be prepared to take a step to cause a death in the family; there’s no way you’d do that
Back to top

gp2.0




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 12 2015, 2:10 pm
It seems pretty obvious to me that he wrote the book and gave interviews in the hope that his children will read them someday and realize he's not a bad guy and want to reconnect with him.
Back to top

bluebird




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 12 2015, 2:39 pm
marina wrote:
Quote:
Was that respectful to Gitty? How would you feel as a wife or ex wife if that was done to you.


Seriously? Imagine this. You go on a business trip, you come back and find that your husband has taken the kids and moved to another country. He told them that you were evil and he needed to protect you from them. As a result, you will likely never see your kids again.

Don't continue reading. Just sit back and imagine that actually happening to you. Let the outrage flood you for a minute.

How concerned are you going to be about being respectful to their dad? How worried are you going to be about protecting his reputation publicly?

Just the very fact that Shulem is so restrained is noteworthy by itself.




The paragraph that you cherrypicked that quote from was about Deen writing about their zex life, not about what you wrote above. I agree with many of your points in other posts, but I would personally be devastated and humiliated to have my most private and vulnerable moments publicized for all to see. Wouldn't you?

Quote:
Quote:
In regards to writing about their personal bedroom life, you can say he needed to put this in to explain his story. If you go to his website he a link of his articles and writings. He posted on a website in 2010 "His First Time". The website that he posted on has a section were people upload their first experience. Was that respectful to Gitty? How would you feel as a wife or ex wife if that was done to you.
Back to top

a jewish woman




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 12 2015, 2:44 pm
marina wrote:
I don't understand why people keep harping on this. Shulem never stated that he represents all chassidim or all new skver pple or anything remotely similar. He is telling his life story. The end. You want to complain about how atypical he is and how he doesn't represent the klal, go for it. It makes no difference.

And why not do a poll asking how many women here on imamother had awkward stilted interactions 6 months into their marriages? You might be surprised.

The stilted interactions between Deen and Gitty make me wonder what she was going through at the time. We hear people say that they did not want to get married to the person they were set up with but were forced into marriage against their will I.e. Pearl Reich. We know Deen didn't want to marry Gitty but we don't know if Gitty wanted to marry Deen. She may have been forced to marry him against her will. If thats the case, then I would understand why they had trouble interacting since neither wanted to be in the marriage.
Is it possible that Gitty acted the way she did after the divorce because she was subconsciously angry and resentful that she was forced to marry Deen who bought shame to her and her family so she is taking out her anger on him by keeping the children away from him? It would be nice to hear what she has to say about it.
Back to top
Page 24 of 26   Previous  1  2  3 23 24  25  26  Next Recent Topics




Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Interesting Discussions

Related Topics Replies Last Post
Do you return calls from numbers you don't know?
by amother
24 Thu, Mar 14 2024, 3:27 am View last post
How much do accountants charge for tax return?
by amother
32 Sat, Feb 17 2024, 8:21 pm View last post
[ Poll ] Do you return shopping carts?
by mom923
47 Wed, Feb 14 2024, 11:14 am View last post
Vouchers using tax return help
by m987
1 Thu, Jan 18 2024, 3:27 pm View last post
I can't figure out how to return to AliExpress
by amother
5 Fri, Jan 05 2024, 9:04 am View last post