Kosherswitch, how long will it be before we all have them?

Sanguine

Tue, Apr 14 2015, 8:23 am

Saw on Arutz 7 site

Quote:

Endorsements for the project include blessings and approbations from R’ Avigdor Nebenzahl, former Chief Rabbi of the Old City of Jerusalem, halakhic leader, and a student of Rabbi Shlomo Auerbach, one of the great Jewish leaders of the past generation; R’ Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg, halakhic leader; Rabbi Yehoshua Neuwirth, author of the prolific and definitive Shabbat work Shmirat Shabbat K'Hilchata; Breslove leader Rabbi Shalom Arush; and Chabad-Lubavitch leader Rabbi Manis Friedman, among others.

PinkFridge

Tue, Apr 14 2015, 8:33 am

Yael3 wrote:

I asked my rov and he said no. His issue is that turning on lights will become "habit" and then you'll start doing it at shul or other peoples' houses where they have regular switches.

Why are so many people denigrating this rav? What of the concept of seyagim? Sure, you may know of areas it's taken too far (blurry glasses, anyone?) but it's not something to dis.

imaima

Tue, Apr 14 2015, 9:52 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Why are so many people denigrating this rav? What of the concept of seyagim? Sure, you may know of areas it's taken too far (blurry glasses, anyone?) but it's not something to dis.

Because there are too many advantages. People not burning alive in their beds, for one.

water_bear88

Tue, Apr 14 2015, 10:12 am

imaima wrote:

Because there are too many advantages. People not burning alive in their beds, for one.

How would this help with that? You can already use a Shabbos timer for your plata, and can't for a hot water urn. I don't see how a switch like this would have helped with either of the recent fires.

MrsDash

Tue, Apr 14 2015, 10:46 am

The mother of all loopholes...

imasoftov

Tue, Apr 14 2015, 12:41 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Why are so many people denigrating this rav? What of the concept of seyagim? Sure, you may know of areas it's taken too far (blurry glasses, anyone?) but it's not something to dis.

A Sanhedrin can enact binding gezeirot of this sort. I don't think anyone today can do more than suggest it.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Apr 14 2015, 1:49 pm

http://text.rcarabbis.org/the-.....osen/

Sanguine

Tue, Apr 14 2015, 2:08 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

http://text.rcarabbis.org/the-kosher-switch-a-response-from-the-tzomet-institutes-rabbi-yisrael-rosen/

I kept wondering why Tzomet hasn't made this (they've had the technology for years). I'm printing what was in your link cause some people here can't link (interesting - the letter is from 2011)

The Kosher Switch: A Response from the Tzomet Institute’s Rabbi Yisrael Rosen
September 22, 2011 by Shlomo Brody
Filed under Halakha, New Posts
1 Comment

The rabbinic world and blogosophere (see, for example, here) has been abuzz about the propriety of the Kosher Switch, which its producers claim allows one to halakhically turn on and off lights on shabbat. Attached here is the Hebrew response of Rabbi Yisrael Rosen, the prominent engineer who heads the Tzomet Institute, which includes (signed) clarifications of the positions of Rabbi Avigdor Nevenzahl and Rabbi Yehoshua Neuwirth. It is was sent on Tzomet stationery to Rabbi David Mescheloff, and is reprinted here with permission.
Below is a rough English translation of the first page, which does not include some of the halakhic argumentation provided on the 2nd page of the original Hebrew. For all scholarly and halakhic purposes, and purposes of citation, only the original Hebrew letter should be seen as the authoritative writing of Rabbi Rosen.
- Shlomo Brody

To Rabbi David Mescheloff, 21st of Elul 5771,09/20/11
Subject: Kosher Switch for Shabbat
In response to your request, I shall refer to the electric switch presented as the ‘Kosher Switch’, and to the website link you sent me, which explains the Halachic background, and even appends a long list of rabbis who have expressed a blessing or support.
The following is my position:

A. Truth be told, I was amazed how easy it is to receive endorsement letters from rabbis. It is apparent that one relies on the other, without taking personal responsibility, and with the fall of the foundation the entire house falls. I do not know what was explained to the rabbis that ‘signed’; however it is clear to any reasonable halachic man that there is no way to permit prohibitions of Shabbat (D’Oraita or D’Rabbanan), not even with Halachic tricks or acrobatics.

B. The whole proposed story relies on the leniency of ‘Gramma’, which no consensus rabbi would permit L’chatchila for domestic and personal use. All ‘Gramma’ or similar halakhic arrangements carried out by the Zomet Institute or Technology Institute in Jerusalem were permitted solely for medical, security and similar needs. Even if they added to the ‘Gramma’ additional apparatuses, and even if there is a one in a thousand chance that the action will not occur, I have received from my rabbis (R. Shlomo Zalman Auerbach and R. Shaul Yisraeli) that this does not change in any way the halakhic status of regular ‘Gramma’ (just like Gramma D’Gramma and other artificial arrangements).

C. Even if the method of operation is non-active from the point of view of the agent, I.e. because he merely removes the “preventing element,” Rabbi S. Z. Auerbach and others wrote that this remains forbidden and is treated like it was done directly by the person, since the action occurs immediately after the human intervention/action. Even if the result comes only after a delay caused by an additional factor, this is plain Gramma, which is still not permitted L’chatchila.

D. And here is the main part of my remarks: Yesterday I went to my teacher and rabbi HaGaon Rabbi Yehoshua Neuwirth, Shlita, and I asked him whether he permitted to use this switch to activate electricity on Shabbat for the purposes of Oneg Shabbat, etc… He was really shocked and said he never permitted that. When I showed him the endorsement letter, he added in his handwriting: “Only for medicine and security” (see photo in attached Hebrew article). Rabbi Avigdor Nebenzahl Shlita, who signed a similar letter, also told me yesterday that he does not recall ever signing anything like that, and expressed the opinion that there is no place for this and was puzzled about the whole thing.
I suppose that whoever managed to get the signatures of important rabbis ‘sold’ them an invention that is a kind of a complex Gramma used for the purpose of medicine or security, and succeeded in skipping this condition when they signed.

E. With regard to the the claim, written in their accompanying halachic responsum, that it is permitted to use this Gramma switch to minimize the prohibition of those who willfully the violate the Shabbat, we have never heard of such rabbis who permit this. I am sure that those who ‘agreed’ did not see this argument, and this is an argument that should not be stated.

With prayer L’Ktiva Vachatima Tova to all of Israel,
Rabbi Yisrael Rosen, Head of the Zomet Institute

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Apr 14 2015, 2:13 pm

Sanguine wrote:

I kept wondering why Tzomet hasn't made this (they've had the technology for years). I'm printing what was in your link cause some people here can't link (interesting - the letter is from 2011)

In terms of the letter being from 2011, the guy in the video talking about this product did say that they have been working on this for a few years already.

Sanguine

Tue, Apr 14 2015, 2:26 pm

The Arut 7 article says since 2009 but interesting, that article "lost" the video and also the list of Rabbanim -

Quote:

Endorsements for the project include blessings and approbations from R’ Avigdor Nebenzahl, former Chief Rabbi of the Old City of Jerusalem, halakhic leader, and a student of Rabbi Shlomo Auerbach, one of the great Jewish leaders of the past generation; Rabbi Yehoshua Neuwirth, author of the prolific and definitive Shabbat work Shmirat Shabbat K'Hilchata;

and this article from Tzomet from 2011 states:

Quote:

Yesterday I went to my teacher and rabbi HaGaon Rabbi Yehoshua Neuwirth, Shlita, and I asked him whether he permitted to use this switch to activate electricity on Shabbat for the purposes of Oneg Shabbat, etc… He was really shocked and said he never permitted that. When I showed him the endorsement letter, he added in his handwriting: “Only for medicine and security” (see photo in attached Hebrew article). Rabbi Avigdor Nebenzahl Shlita, who signed a similar letter, also told me yesterday that he does not recall ever signing anything like that, and expressed the opinion that there is no place for this and was puzzled about the whole thing.

OOPS!!

(for the man who made the switch, not me - I said in the beginning that I didn't trust the salesman Wink

)

Last edited by Sanguine on Tue, Apr 14 2015, 2:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

Scrabble123

Tue, Apr 14 2015, 2:33 pm

I would most likely not use this light switch in my home. I do not like the aesthetic look of light switches at all.

Ruchel

Tue, Apr 14 2015, 2:38 pm

If "our rabbis" would allow, I would allow, even if it was the ugliest look ever :p

Scrabble123

Tue, Apr 14 2015, 2:41 pm

Ruchel wrote:

If "our rabbis" would allow, I would allow, even if it was the ugliest look ever :p

Why?

MagentaYenta

Tue, Apr 14 2015, 2:45 pm

Ruchel wrote:

If "our rabbis" would allow, I would allow, even if it was the ugliest look ever :p

I totally agree. I wonder if our rabbis will ever catch up with science.

Scrabble123

Tue, Apr 14 2015, 2:49 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

I totally agree. I wonder if our rabbis will ever catch up with science.

But............. those outdated light switches are also not up to date......

Ruchel

Tue, Apr 14 2015, 2:52 pm

For the same reason I vote in favour of an eruv even if it was uglyyyyyy. Or any other appliance allowing me to like shabbes even as a mom etc.

Random: Before we splurged on a wall, "professional" a/c in our bedroom we had a cheaper one that couldn't work for long without stopping due to being full of water. Then, we couldn't turn it on anymore during shabbes. In summer I was soooo sick, I called a rav (chassidish, ftr) and told him I was nursing and was dreading shabbes because heat, migraine, basically it was my husband trying to keep the kids in the living room so I didn't have noise while I was sick. He said in such a case you "have" the baby push "by accident". I bet a similar sitch could allow this switch.

But I want "my" rabbis to agree with it. Not just any rav.

Scrabble123

Tue, Apr 14 2015, 2:56 pm

Ruchel wrote:

I just don't see the benefit of this item at all, and to top it all off, it's outdated and hideous look is just not selling it for me. Others may find it useful, though so if their rabonim allow it, then they should enjoy it.

imasinger

Tue, Apr 14 2015, 2:57 pm

Here is one of the many interesting posts discussing the issue on torah musings, following an initial scholarly article:
http://www.torahmusings.com/20.....iach/

Quote:

Webster’s definition of fraud is: a: deceit, trickery; specifically: intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right b: an act of deceiving or misrepresenting : trick.

What the marketers here did qualifies by every standard. And I find some people’s continuing defense of these people incredible.

I don’t know – and please tell me if you do – that any Rav was ambiguious about his position. Have you seen one clearly worded written psak that was backed down from? I haven’t.

What I can tell, from speaking to some Rabbanim directly or through a single intermediary, is:

1. In the case of Rabbi Simchah Bunim Cohen, it seems that they misrepresented their plan to him to induce him to write a letter. Furthermore, his name remained on the site for nearly a day after he was told it was already removed.

2. In the case of Rabbi Harfenes, the marketers posted a generic teshuvah of his with an annotion implying that the Rabbi approved this product fully, while they had in their possesion (but witheld from visitors to their site) his letter specifically forbidding it’s general use. Yes, that letter was now posted, after their deciet was outed.

3. Rabbi Belsky denies ever indicating approval of this product. Being somewhat acquainted with his approach in psak, it would be totally out of character for him to be mattir its general use. He opened his Bassar B’Chalav shiur in Torah Vodaath Wednesday morning with a lengthy attack against this device and its use under any circumstances — at home or for cholim.

4. I never made a printout of all the names they had listed, but as the heat was rising, one noticed many names quietly disappearing, among them Rabbi Aharon Schechter and Rabbi Dovid Cohen. I assume that the marketers are really tzaddikim who had the wholehearted support of these Rabbanim – as they had represented – but removed their names because they were taking up too much space.

So, of 4 rabbanim I directly consulted/had consulted, only 2 had approved this, and even then only for hospital use. Of those two, one’s name was associated with this in violation of an assurance. The position of the second rav was intentionally distorted by the site owners.

The other two Rabbanim had never allowed this under any circumstances.

That having been said, I reiterate (in lower case letters): fraud, deciet, and lies.

And some people still insist on drinking the kool-aid.

It seems that this switch is far from widely accepted,and that some limited endorsements (for hospital or non frum settings) may have been promoted out of turn.

Again, this article is from2 011, so maybe things have changed.

Sanguine

Tue, Apr 14 2015, 3:16 pm

It's a Scam!!

Here are their Rabaim Endorsements (see which ones I highlighted)

Quote:

Endorsements for the project include blessings and approbations from R’ Avigdor Nebenzahl, former Chief Rabbi of the Old City of Jerusalem, halakhic leader, and a student of Rabbi Shlomo Auerbach, one of the great Jewish leaders of the past generation; Rabbi Yehoshua Neuwirth, author of the prolific and definitive Shabbat work Shmirat Shabbat K'Hilchata;

Tzomet is the Organization in Israel that finds halachic solutions - Mostly for security and medical needs (things that would have to be done anyway for Pikuach Nefesh) and there are some things that are OK for regular people (like a Shabbat elevator)

Four years ago when someone asked the head of Tzomet why they didn't make this (they've had the technology in hospitals for years), he gave a long explanation of why it is not OK. And then he asked some of the famous Rabonim that Kosherswitch listed as their endorsersers. See what they answered in 2011

and this article from Tzomet from 2011 states:

Quote:

Why are women still discussing if it will look nice in their Dining room?

MagentaYenta

Tue, Apr 14 2015, 3:22 pm

Scrabble123 wrote:

But............. those outdated light switches are also not up to date......

The science of solid state electronics, micro circuitry and led lights are areas of science I'd like to see addressed by rabbis. I go along with the no turning on or off of lights etc, critical thinking tells me differently so there is some cognitive dissonance I ignore for the sake of my conforming to the demands of my religion.