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-> Interesting Discussions
BlueRose52
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 Thu, Apr 16 2015, 10:04 am
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In his book, All Who Go Do Not Return (original thread), Shulem Deen describes his shidduch process in detail. The thing I found interesting is that he clearly expressed a desire not to marry the person that was being suggested to him, yet through family, social, and rebbishe pressure he eventually acquiesces to the shidduch. How is this allowed halachically? I thought that according to the torah a person can't be forced to marry someone who they don't want to. Yet despite the fact that everyone around him knew that he didn't want this match, he was pressured into accepting it. Doesn't this directly contravene the halacha?
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black sheep
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Thu, Apr 16 2015, 10:27 am
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in addition to halacha, doesn't it contradict common sense to pressure someone to marry against his will?
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gp2.0
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Thu, Apr 16 2015, 10:37 am
I don't know of any "forced" marriages. I do know of some where the guy or girl is pressured to make a hasty decision.
A HUGE amount of chassidishe marriages are made through the use of pressure - specifically, social pressure and ticking timebomb pressure.
Social pressure exists everywhere, but in chassidishe communites girls AND guys are afraid to hit 20/21 because by 22 you are officially labeled "problem" and your shidduch prospects are limited. So there is a rush to accept a shidduch you're just OK with and pressure not to say no for an intangible reason like "I feel parve about him."
In addition to that, the ticking timebomb. Chassidishe shidduchim take place like THAT. More than one b'show is becoming common, so wow, the couple gets to meet two or THREE times, can you believe it, over the course of one week...or even, rarely, TWO weeks. Mind blowing right? But compared to the frummer ones, who meet only ONCE and then get engaged or not, you can imagine that meeting three times and still being allowed to say no seems like the height of permissiveness.
So I dunno, does forcing someone to make a hasty decision (because nu, you already met 3 times, is it yes or is it no???) count as forced marriage? Not really. And yet...
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Ruchel
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Thu, Apr 16 2015, 10:47 am
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Interesting how it differs from chassidishe shiduchim from pre-war outside maybe (?) of the most rebbishe ones.
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black sheep
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Thu, Apr 16 2015, 10:49 am
well it isn't a marriage at gunpoint, if that is what you mean. but the pressure is so great that the boy or girl literally do not have a choice. I know of one girl who said no to getting engaged after a few dates (very yeshivish family, lounge dates,) so her mother drove her somewhere while meanwhile the boys family came over for the lechaim, and on the way home, as they were getting out of the car, the mother said, "by the way, mazal tov, you are getting engaged tonight." does that count as forced? she ended up breaking it before the wedding, but it took a tramendous amount of strength. I know another girl (chasidish) who said no after the first b'show, her mother told her she has no reason to say no so therefore she must give the guy another shot, she said no after the second b'show, her mother pushed her for a reason beyond "I seriously don't want to marry this guy" and her mother insisted giving him another shot, she came down for the third b'show to see his and her family there for the l'chaim. her mother told her that she should know the third b'show is the l'chaim. her entire family knew she didn't want to marry him, yet they came to the b'show with smiles and mazal tov's. she ended up divorcing after a few months.
the first story is a very close relative, and I was the only one telling her to listen to her gut feelings and break the engagement if she is not happy, and I was asked by her sisters not to speak to her because, "she is already so nervous and having cold feet, please don't make it worse." can you imagine? her own sisters wanted her to marry someone she didn't want to marry. why? what is the point? the second story is a friend of mine, and I didn't know what was going on until after the divorce.
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gp2.0
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Thu, Apr 16 2015, 10:54 am
| black sheep wrote: | well it isn't a marriage at gunpoint, if that is what you mean. but the pressure is so great that the boy or girl literally do not have a choice. I know of one girl who said no to getting engaged after a few dates (very yeshivish family, lounge dates,) so her mother drove her somewhere while meanwhile the boys family came over for the lechaim, and on the way home, as they were getting out of the car, the mother said, "by the way, mazal tov, you are getting engaged tonight." does that count as forced? she ended up breaking it before the wedding, but it took a tramendous amount of strength. I know another girl (chasidish) who said no after the first b'show, her mother told her she has no reason to say no so therefore she must give the guy another shot, she said no after the second b'show, her mother pushed her for a reason beyond "I seriously don't want to marry this guy" and her mother insisted giving him another shot, she came down for the third b'show to see his and her family there for the l'chaim. her mother told her that she should know the third b'show is the l'chaim. her entire family knew she didn't want to marry him, yet they came to the b'show with smiles and mazal tov's. she ended up divorcing after a few months.
the first story is a very close relative, and I was the only one telling her to listen to her gut feelings and break the engagement if she is not happy, and I was asked by her sisters not to speak to her because, "she is already so nervous and having cold feet, please don't make it worse." can you imagine? her own sisters wanted her to marry someone she didn't want to marry. why? what is the point? the second story is a friend of mine, and I didn't know what was going on until after the divorce. |
These stories are crazy. I've heard of one or two similar ones too. But we should be clear they are not the norm, by litvish or chassidish. Unbelievable the lengths some parents will go to. 
ETA yes I would count both your examples as forced as the chosson was given the ok without the kallahs input.
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Maya
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Thu, Apr 16 2015, 10:59 am
| gp2.0 wrote: | I don't know of any "forced" marriages. I do know of some where the guy or girl is pressured to make a hasty decision.
A HUGE amount of chassidishe marriages are made through the use of pressure - specifically, social pressure and ticking timebomb pressure.
Social pressure exists everywhere, but in chassidishe communites girls AND guys are afraid to hit 20/21 because by 22 you are officially labeled "problem" and your shidduch prospects are limited. So there is a rush to accept a shidduch you're just OK with and pressure not to say no for an intangible reason like "I feel parve about him."
In addition to that, the ticking timebomb. Chassidishe shidduchim take place like THAT. More than one b'show is becoming common, so wow, the couple gets to meet two or THREE times, can you believe it, over the course of one week...or even, rarely, TWO weeks. Mind blowing right? But compared to the frummer ones, who meet only ONCE and then get engaged or not, you can imagine that meeting three times and still being allowed to say no seems like the height of permissiveness.
So I dunno, does forcing someone to make a hasty decision (because nu, you already met 3 times, is it yes or is it no???) count as forced marriage? Not really. And yet... |
Well said.
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BlueRose52
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Thu, Apr 16 2015, 11:01 am
| black sheep wrote: | well it isn't a marriage at gunpoint, if that is what you mean. but the pressure is so great that the boy or girl literally do not have a choice. I know of one girl who said no to getting engaged after a few dates (very yeshivish family, lounge dates,) so her mother drove her somewhere while meanwhile the boys family came over for the lechaim, and on the way home, as they were getting out of the car, the mother said, "by the way, mazal tov, you are getting engaged tonight." does that count as forced? she ended up breaking it before the wedding, but it took a tramendous amount of strength. I know another girl (chasidish) who said no after the first b'show, her mother told her she has no reason to say no so therefore she must give the guy another shot, she said no after the second b'show, her mother pushed her for a reason beyond "I seriously don't want to marry this guy" and her mother insisted giving him another shot, she came down for the third b'show to see his and her family there for the l'chaim. her mother told her that she should know the third b'show is the l'chaim. her entire family knew she didn't want to marry him, yet they came to the b'show with smiles and mazal tov's. she ended up divorcing after a few months.
the first story is a very close relative, and I was the only one telling her to listen to her gut feelings and break the engagement if she is not happy, and I was asked by her sisters not to speak to her because, "she is already so nervous and having cold feet, please don't make it worse." can you imagine? her own sisters wanted her to marry someone she didn't want to marry. why? what is the point? the second story is a friend of mine, and I didn't know what was going on until after the divorce. |
Yes, this is definitely what I would consider forced. I thought it was obvious that I wasn't referring to forced by gunpoint or threats of physical harm. But this sort of extreme social pressure where the person has no choice but to agree is, to my mind, forced. Aside from the general cruelty to the person being pressured, it's totally against halacha, so how do they justify it?
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marina
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Thu, Apr 16 2015, 11:07 am
When I was going out, the girls from England had a rule: they go out three times and make a decision. Crown Heights girls went out for longer- maybe 6 or 7 dates.
And yes, if you were not married after Sem Bais or Gimmel, you were, um, something's maybe not right with you. OMG nebach on those two girls we know who are 23 or 24, Hashem should help them quickly, we will daven for them.
So combine those two together and now you have your answer as to how social pressure works.
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Maya
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Thu, Apr 16 2015, 11:08 am
| BlueRose52 wrote: | | Yes, this is definitely what I would consider forced. I thought it was obvious that I wasn't referring to forced by gunpoint or threats of physical harm. But this sort of extreme social pressure where the person has no choice but to agree is, to my mind, forced. Aside from the general cruelty to the person being pressured, it's totally against halacha, so how do they justify it? |
The same way they justify lots of other practices that seem to be against halacha, or at least against lots of halachic opinions, not to mention morals.
Which essentially is "this-and-this rebbe instituted it or said it's okay, and he knew better than all of us, and who are we to question him."
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Hatemywig
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Thu, Apr 16 2015, 11:23 am
| marina wrote: | When I was going out, the girls from England had a rule: they go out three times and make a decision. Crown Heights girls went out for longer- maybe 6 or 7 dates.
And yes, if you were not married after Sem Bais or Gimmel, you were, um, something's maybe not right with you. OMG nebach on those two girls we know who are 23 or 24, Hashem should help them quickly, we will daven for them.
So combine those two together and now you have your answer as to how social pressure works. |
I believe that a good portion of this has changed within Lubavitch. As far as English girls going out only 3 times? This is the first I've heard of it.
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myself
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Thu, Apr 16 2015, 11:23 am
 gp2.0.
The stories mentioned by black sheep are definitely NOT the norm though unfortunately not completely unbelievable. No one is forced per se, but the pressure to come to a decision, and the peer/social pressure to say yes is definitely there. A friend of mine met several boys, and said no, before meeting her bashert, however that's not the norm either. 
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ora_43
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Thu, Apr 16 2015, 11:27 am
marina - I see a couple differences between social pressure and what Bluerose was describing.
For one, social pressure can be a factor even when it's not explicit or even intended, which makes it more complicated to deal with.
But more importantly - I can see how general social pressure could, in some people's minds, serve a purpose (in this case, encouraging people to marry young and not get involved in sinning and whatnot). But what purpose could pressuring someone to marry a specific person they're not interested in possibly have? It's not the middle ages; nobody needs their kids to marry a specific other person's kids in order to merge fiefdoms. So he doesn't want to marry one girl, there are still plenty of other girls, no?
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Maya
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Thu, Apr 16 2015, 11:37 am
| ora_43 wrote: | marina - I see a couple differences between social pressure and what Bluerose was describing.
For one, social pressure can be a factor even when it's not explicit or even intended, which makes it more complicated to deal with.
But more importantly - I can see how general social pressure could, in some people's minds, serve a purpose (in this case, encouraging people to marry young and not get involved in sinning and whatnot). But what purpose could pressuring someone to marry a specific person they're not interested in possibly have? It's not the middle ages; nobody needs their kids to marry a specific other person's kids in order to merge fiefdoms. So he doesn't want to marry one girl, there are still plenty of other girls, no? |
Often that person is holding up a line of other marriageable age children, and they don't have the time to wait around until something more viable comes up.
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Fox
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Thu, Apr 16 2015, 12:10 pm
| Maya wrote: | | Often that person is holding up a line of other marriageable age children, and they don't have the time to wait around until something more viable comes up. |
This. Though I'm happy to report that in the Litvish world, people are easing up a little on this.
The other social pressure in the Litvish veldt is the shidduch crisis. Far too many girls feel that if they don't grab the first guy who's willing to marry them, they'll be single forever.
The result, of course, is more and more quick divorces.
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ora_43
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Thu, Apr 16 2015, 12:20 pm
| Maya wrote: | | Often that person is holding up a line of other marriageable age children, and they don't have the time to wait around until something more viable comes up. |
Wow, that's harsh. Poor older kids  .
What would happen if a set of parents let younger kids marry first? Would shadchanim agree to set them up? IOW is this a community-imposed ban, or something individual sets of parents enforce within the family?
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chagru
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Thu, Apr 16 2015, 12:35 pm
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Even though it sounds crazy, and sometimes it is. The system seems to work for many people. I wonder if those who had a longer dating process are happier or have less problems a few years down the line. I don't know the answer, but I often wonder
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Maya
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Thu, Apr 16 2015, 12:36 pm
| ora_43 wrote: | Wow, that's harsh. Poor older kids .
What would happen if a set of parents let younger kids marry first? Would shadchanim agree to set them up? IOW is this a community-imposed ban, or something individual sets of parents enforce within the family? |
It's not a ban. It's just the way the society is set up, another absurd thing to add to the list of absurd social norms within the community. Shadchanim would continue to work on a shidduch, but the possibilities become more limited.
I actually got married before my older brother. His shidduch prospects were anyway looking bad because he was already 23, but rarely do people marry off a younger child if the older one is 20 or 21. (My brother got engaged and married shortly after, to a wonderful young woman.)
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Maya
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Thu, Apr 16 2015, 12:37 pm
| chagru wrote: | | Even though it sounds crazy, and sometimes it is. The system seems to work for many people. I wonder if those who had a longer dating process are happier or have less problems a few years down the line. I don't know the answer, but I often wonder |
It's not about happier or less problems. It's mostly about compatibility.
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amother
Red
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Thu, Apr 16 2015, 12:38 pm
| chagru wrote: | | Even though it sounds crazy, and sometimes it is. The system seems to work for many people. I wonder if those who had a longer dating process are happier or have less problems a few years down the line. I don't know the answer, but I often wonder |
Human nature is the same everywhere.
Consider the extreme social pressure and extreme emotional/financial repercussions of divorce for a woman in the system, and the reason why there aren't more divorces in this system becomes very clear.
I know because I'm living it.
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