Forced marriages (s/o of All Who Go Do Not Return)

imaima

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 8:06 am

Sadie wrote:

I'm not surprised, I've heard lots of terrible stories too. In Israel I've heard of Xtians with Jewish heritage getting citizenship and converting with the intention of infiltrating communities and converting people to Xtianity. I don't know how much of that is true or just scare stories, but if you can dream of it, someone somewhere has probably done it.
Problems with accepting converts into Am Yisroel is nothing new, it's written about in the gemara.
I think the fact that it's hard must be the reason why ahavat hager is so emphasized in the Torah. To remind us that we don't get out of doing mitzvot because they are hard.
Preserving the flavor and traditions of a specific community is not more important than doing a mitzvah deoraita. It just isn't.

Well if their conversion wasn't sincere, then there is no obligation to integrate them. I think amother below explained it. It probably came to an extent when it was obvious to anyone that there was no intention to live Torah life.

Ruchel

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 8:09 am

Yes there are horror stories of awful rabbanim conversion wise, and awful converts.

But Judaism accepts converts.

Chassidim may be insular, they have the "very frum, not into the modern world" reason (and you do have shidduchim in between groups). Modern SYs who come back with a non Jewish girlfriend is totally different... or barely shomer mitzvos but they engage their 16 yr old to her 28 yr old cousin... yeah well

Sadie

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 8:12 am

imaima wrote:

I agree that there is no obligation to integrate insincere converts.
But lumping sincere converts in with insincere converts is a form of oppression.
I can't believe that a frum Syrian who wants to marry a frum giyores in 2015 needs to be thrown out of his community because of the "Italian problem" they had in the 30's and 40's.
There must be a better way. Continuing the takana is lazy and cruel.

Sadie

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 8:14 am

imaima wrote:

Because when she isn't she will be bashed! Just like me.

It says to respect chachamim in the same Torah, where it says to welcome a convert.

Where did I bash you? Did I say a personal word at all? If something I said hurt you I apologize, it was not on purpose.

amother

Powderblue

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 8:45 am

Sadie wrote:

I don't know if they would be "thrown out". I believe what the takana is referrring to by "accepting converts"- is being megayer them. Once they are part of the community after converting, I don't believe there is an issue to marry them. However, most people who convert end up staying in the same community they were megayer in, They join the Rav's kehillah etc. Also as was said, syrians usually stick to their own and just marry syrians or other sefardim.

Sadie

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 9:12 am

amother wrote:

Here is an explanation by a supporter of the takana:
http://www.ottmall.com/mj_ht_a.....l#CIA

He says: "In the Syrian Community, being ostracized by the rabbinate is tantamount to a social death sentence.
Most of the community is, at least outwardly, observant. Ex: No one would ever dare to drive to shul on Shabbat or Yom Tob. Anyone married to a non-Jew or a convert is shunned by the community, both generally and by the individual members. All of the people who do marry non-Jewish spouses
or converts are forced (by being shunned) to leave the community."

amother

Powderblue

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 9:31 am

Sadie wrote:

I'm from the syrian community and have never experienced seeing anyone being ostracized or shunned for being a Ger but maybe that's because I don't know many Geirim and the few I do know have been treated kindly.

amother

Honeydew

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 11:19 am

Ok, syrians, would you let your sons marry my daughters? I am ffb but my mother converted (after she met my father)

She is one of the frummest people I know, wears a sheital, spends a lot of time saying tehillim and is all round a wonderful person. She has over a hundred frum grandchildren.

Do you look into peoples geneologies?

2cents

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 4:32 pm

I was involved in a syrian shidduch a few years ago, where the engagement was called off because a the chosson's side broke off the engagement because they learned that an eldery widowed relative of the kallah, who had moved to a diff state and was not in the community anymore, had married a giyores.

I also have about a case many years ago where a frum syrian man wanted to marry a frum giyores and couldn't breakk through community pressure. harav ovadia zl came and testified on her behalf, that she was a righteous convert, and the community still didn't accept it.

amother

Olive

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 4:40 pm

Sadie wrote:

It's not okay and I've never heard a good excuse for it. It's disgusting.

And how do people feel if we turn this around on Ashkenazim? It's against halacha and disgusting that you have a takana on multiple wives. It means that a man who can't have children with his wife is obligated to divorce her rather than take an additional wife with her permission. That's cruel. What if she doesn't want to divorce? What if she would rather be involved in the upbringing of her husband's children with another wife? Especially in the days when women couldn't earn a living! What's she supposed to do, be destitute?

Don't hold everyone by your standards of 'right' and 'wrong', if you aren't willing to be held by others' standards.

The whole point of a takana is that it's against halacha. Otherwise it would be the halacha and not a takana.

Don't call our great sages disgusting. That's disgusting.

And anyway, have you ever actually read the takana?

Sadie

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 4:53 pm

amother wrote:

LOL! I would love to see what would happen if any of my Mizrachi SIL's husbands tried to take a second wife. You could put it on pay-per-view.
Yes, I have read the takana.
The definition of a takana is not something that is against halacha, most takanot are not against halacha.
Still LOLing over this comparison.
Also you shouldn't be amother for this post.

amother

Brown

Thu, Apr 23 2015, 2:53 am

imaima wrote:

If you don't think you settled, why are you hurt?
And I didn't have a stable home so I am hurt now too... how dare you have such a criterion??? How does it even matter? Rolling Eyes

I said I am hurt that people assume I did something unsavory/went OTD or something is wrong with me (learning issues, medical problem etc) to "have to settle". I had a typical upbringing in regular schools. My perfect guy just happened to be a ger. And I wasn't an older single either. But now I am hurt as I get some of the questions people asked me. They wanted to know my nonexistent "issue" that "made me settle". I thought they were weird questions-now I realize they were calculating my shidduch value to help them understand.

And when I said "knew what a stable home was like"- I never said it had to be their home. If they were a Ben bayis at someone's home then they know what one looks like. And my comment about "relationship with parent" was mostly in reference to if they were BT/ger- I didn't want to step into a minefield. I couldn't handle it. We have a great relationship with the in laws and they are so kind, understanding, considerate. I should have been specific but typing on a mobile is hard.

Chayalle

Thu, Apr 23 2015, 10:35 am

amother wrote:

Huh? I actually think this protects women with IF.

For example: Say a woman cannot have children unless she does IVF - to the tune of 20-30 grand. OK, husband decides it's cheaper to take another wife for having kids, rather than spend the money.

Divorce is kind of drastic. I have not heard of many who divorce because of IF. I do know someone who did, but the marriage had it's problems from the start, and with no children to tie them, they ended up divorcing. Both are now happily remarried - she to a widower with children, and he has remarried and had children of his own.

Totally OT though.