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Rewarded for smartness not effort?
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Ema of 5




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 21 2015, 9:24 am
5mom wrote:
There's always something. What about the introvert who wants to be left alone but has to sit in class with 25 other kids? He's going to be miserable for years, but prevailing wisdom is that socializing is important.

I agree that excessive rewards are unfair, but discouraging our brightest kids isn't in anyone's interest. And believe me, when grades are subordinate to effort, smart children will tune out.

But no one is discouraging brightness. People are just saying that EXTRA activities that will be rewarded should be effort based, not academic based. There's enough academics in school already. The extras should be achievable for EVERYONE!
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 21 2015, 9:33 am
Lowering expectations is obviously not a solution. I also think kids should be rewarded for getting good grades, even if it's a breeze for them. The problem isn't that the kids were rewarded, the problem is the reward. If every A student got a can of soda for example, they would feel great, they would be getting rewarded, the other kids would feel envy and perhaps try even harder to get a better grade next time so they can also get a soda. It would hurt a little, but they would get over it. But an amusement park???!? It's hard for me to describe it, but that is way over the top. The kids left behind feel awful, they are boiling with envy. Sure, life isn't fair, but as adults we are supposed to encourage and reward so that kids will feel good about themselves, not so half the kids want to kick themselves in the pants and cry themselves to sleep because they will never attain the goal they worked like dogs to reach.
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amother
Turquoise


 

Post Tue, Apr 21 2015, 10:44 am
ora_43 wrote:
Nobody is suggesting "dumbing down the curriculum." That has nothing to do with OP's issue.

I don't think helping children discover other talents is a solution to this. It's wonderful and self-esteem-building if a kid who struggles with math and English discovers a talent for athletics or art, but it doesn't change the fact that they need to get through 10+ years of material in subjects they don't have a talent in.

Which is why it's a good idea for teachers to praise students for hard work, when applicable, and to avoid discouraging them by offering prizes that they can never earn.

OP. I'd give you another dozen hugs,thanks
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working hard




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 21 2015, 11:02 am
As a High School teacher, I once walked into my classroom to find just under half the class there. They greeted me saying they were the dummies and had to stay behind from a trip as they could not get it. Truth is the girls who were there were all girls who do score lower. Most of them tried very hard but a perfact score was impossbile for them. Only girls who got 100 on the exam got the trip.
I was faced with a group of sullen girls who felt like dummies and said there was no point in coming today as teachers are not going to teach with only half the girls there.
I think this is a systemic problem and wish I had a solution.

By the way, during that lesson, I turned to the back of the book and taught them a lesson from the enrichment for gifted students section in a way that they all grasped it and told them they are responsible for having the other girls catch up as I did not reteach the material. At the end of the lesson I showed them what I did and made sure they realized I did not feel that they were "dummies" but smart girls who can succeed as well. It was a great boost for them.
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acccdac




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 21 2015, 11:03 am
eema of 3 wrote:
Can you please give some tips (here or in another thread) about the RIGHT way to study?


(just to address your comments, that is why as a teacher I do not give "book tests" that are standardize. I am also mainly a math teacher and I rarely even use a previous test. I make each test for each class. If you cant do a math problem you dont know the information, verses a history test where you forget the leader of the Soviet Union during WW2. Also I am a human not a scantron. When I notice a student seems to be comprehending information during class but performs horribly on tests I investigate and make modifications to best test that student to their abilities. For example, I have a student who is only required to answer 70% of her test correctly to receive a grade of 100%, she has and IEP to back up this modification. I find that on most tests she can score at least an 80% - real 80% not modified -on her own. The simple knowledge of knowing she isnt pressured makes her perform better.)

When I ask students how they study they tell me that "I read my notes"

You cant read your notes.

Studying is active. You need to make index cards, you need to study with a friend (not talk or play around), you should rewrite your notes, or write an outline based on your notes.
Create a cheat sheet even if you cant use it.
Make up a test, have a friend do the same and swap it.
Dont study the night before

For index cards, you put question/vocab word on one side and the answer on the other. You go through the cards testing yourself (preferably reading out loud) and make two piles "know" and "dont know". Then pick up the "dont know" pile and repeat until you are left with %5 of the cards in the "dont know" pile. You take a break (30 minutes, 3 hours, 1 day) and you repeat. This time usually the "know" pile is larger than the first time you did this. Index cards are good because you can use them anywhere, even in a restaurant under the table because your mother forced you to go out for your grandmothers birthday and you have a big test the next day. Buy binder rings (they sell them loose) and whole punch the cards so they dont fall and get lost.

As a parent if you see your child putting in effort like the index cards example above and they are not producing 80% or higher (yes I said 80%, I hate this new trend that everyone has to get a 100%) then you should have a meeting with your child's teacher. Its possibly your child has a memory retention issue. Discuss whether or not it would be apropos to test your child so they can get the necessary modification.
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acccdac




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 21 2015, 11:10 am
working hard wrote:
As a High School teacher, I once walked into my classroom to find just under half the class there. They greeted me saying they were the dummies and had to stay behind from a trip as they could not get it. Truth is the girls who were there were all girls who do score lower. Most of them tried very hard but a perfact score was impossbile for them. Only girls who got 100 on the exam got the trip.
I was faced with a group of sullen girls who felt like dummies and said there was no point in coming today as teachers are not going to teach with only half the girls there.
I think this is a systemic problem and wish I had a solution.

By the way, during that lesson, I turned to the back of the book and taught them a lesson from the enrichment for gifted students section in a way that they all grasped it and told them they are responsible for having the other girls catch up as I did not reteach the material. At the end of the lesson I showed them what I did and made sure they realized I did not feel that they were "dummies" but smart girls who can succeed as well. It was a great boost for them.


Was this class a tracked class?

I am asking because as a teacher I love the concept of tracked classes.

We arent allowed to do tracks other than usually math (at least in middle school) and I think that tracks are a wonderful thing. I dont think a student should be stuck in a track because that this where they were placed (although there should be a switching cut off date during each school year). I think that if each class was taught from a book to their level but learn the same information then everyone would be mastering the same information. My brother teaches a remedial 8th grade class. They were all upset at the beginning of the school year that their math book did not say "algebra" on top. The class was taught from a pre-algebra skills book. The class finished the entire textbook before Pesach this year. The boys felt so accomplished they said "we never finished a book in our lives!". They are now learning from an algebra book but will probably enter 9th Algebra grade with a much stronger foundation and will succeed more than they thought they ever could.
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amother
Jetblack


 

Post Tue, Apr 21 2015, 11:22 am
I skimmed through all the previous posts and don't think anyone specifically addressed this.

Did the principle set the expectations before the test regarding the trip? Or was it just a surprise reward after the fact? If it was after the fact, I would discuss it with the principle and ask him to in the future set the expectations before hand and maybe modify the expectations for your son. So if you and the teacher feel together that an 85 for your son would be a big accomplishment then set that goal and if he meets it, he should also be able to go on the trip. I think this still rewards effort and doesn't automatically let your son go on the trip without meeting a set goal, just that the goal is modified for him.

In general I think setting the expectations before hand for all the boys is important.
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working hard




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 21 2015, 11:23 am
No the class was not tracked at all. Just above half earned the trip and the rest did not ( and dare I say could not. It was not really fair to them.
acccdac wrote:
Was this class a tracked class?

I am asking because as a teacher I love the concept of tracked classes.

We arent allowed to do tracks other than usually math (at least in middle school) and I think that tracks are a wonderful thing. I dont think a student should be stuck in a track because that this where they were placed (although there should be a switching cut off date during each school year). I think that if each class was taught from a book to their level but learn the same information then everyone would be mastering the same information. My brother teaches a remedial 8th grade class. They were all upset at the beginning of the school year that their math book did not say "algebra" on top. The class was taught from a pre-algebra skills book. The class finished the entire textbook before Pesach this year. The boys felt so accomplished they said "we never finished a book in our lives!". They are now learning from an algebra book but will probably enter 9th Algebra grade with a much stronger foundation and will succeed more than they thought they ever could.
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JAWSCIENCE




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 21 2015, 11:25 am
I think schools should reward both. This school has done something weird by announcing to the rest of the class what other students got on an exam (that's private information). They also created a situation where the students who do not get to go on a trip are stuck behind in a class where the will be too sad to learn. It is not a good reward. I am more familiar with students getting rewarded in this way for a certain accomplishment, like memorizing pirkei avos, which should be possible for all with varying levels of work, and takes place after school.

OTOH I remember in 3rd grade there was a rush of kids needing to go to the resource room (that is the room where students who need more personal attention go). They came back with tons of prizes and great stuff so more and more kids kept asking if they could go/intentionally bombing tests and homework. Many admitted among their peers they were doing this because of the prizes offered to those students because they were "working harder" or as incentives while the rest of us got nothing but a boring lesson and a mark on a paper. I was somewhat jealous but never tried to go because I had the vague notion this was wrong and my parents were very proud of my grades so I felt that was a good reward, but many girls who did not need the help definitely were going. So rewarding needing to try harder and ignoring those who are just naturally gifted is not a great solution either. There has to be a balance.

Why do people think it is a privilege to get asked for notes? I got great grades but my handwriting stank and I refused to improve it because I'm stubborn that way. I also did not believe in writing everything down. The poor girl who had a beautiful handwriting and did believe in writing things down was harassed to no end, had students constantly loosing her notes when they were photocopying them and was generally treated like public property. Asking to borrow her notes never translated into inviting her over etc. I felt sorry that she had to go through this and thought she was a true tzadekes for not saying no, although in retrospect I realize the peer pressure to give in to popular girls might have made that option moot.
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Scrabble123




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 21 2015, 12:46 pm
JAWSCIENCE wrote:
I think schools should reward both. This school has done something weird by announcing to the rest of the class what other students got on an exam (that's private information).


I don't know how old the kids were, but in my 9th grade Algebra 2 Trig. Honors class my teacher used to pass out star stickers to people who got above 90% on a test. We were old enough to understand the concept (and actually made fun of the fact that we wanted the starts in 9th grade). There were some kids who did not get stars, but it didn't change how we or anyone else felt about them. I think that this everyone has to be the same is a problem that is rampant in some communities. Some have even tried to eliminate valedictorian because it is "unfair" to other students. There is nothing wrong with rewarding those who have earned it: sometimes that will be attitude based, other times athletically based, other times popularity based, and other times academically based. Not only is it ok, but it is a great way for children to feel good with someone else's success and recognize everyone's talents (and even possibly be a source of encouragement). OP's son does not need to feel left out because he did not go on the trip. This opportunity allows OP to discuss with her son his areas of success, discuss with him ways to improve his academics if applicable, and show him about feeling happy with others' successes.
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Iymnok




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 21 2015, 12:51 pm
I know a school that has 2 ways of making the honor roll. Getting above a 3.8 gpa or raising your gpa 5% higher than last semester. No one knew how each person made it.
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amother
Turquoise


 

Post Tue, Apr 21 2015, 12:58 pm
Scrabble123 wrote:
I don't know how old the kids were, but in my 9th grade Algebra 2 Trig. Honors class my teacher used to pass out star stickers to people who got above 90% on a test. We were old enough to understand the concept (and actually made fun of the fact that we wanted the starts in 9th grade). There were some kids who did not get stars, but it didn't change how we or anyone else felt about them. I think that this everyone has to be the same is a problem that is rampant in some communities. Some have even tried to eliminate valedictorian because it is "unfair" to other students. There is nothing wrong with rewarding those who have earned it: sometimes that will be attitude based, other times athletically based, other times popularity based, and other times academically based. Not only is it ok, but it is a great way for children to feel good with someone else's success and recognize everyone's talents (and even possibly be a source of encouragement). OP's son does not need to feel left out because he did not go on the trip. This opportunity allows OP to discuss with her son his areas of success, discuss with him ways to improve his academics if applicable, and show him about feeling happy with others' successes.


This was a project for 8yr old boys. I don't know if all boys worked hard ,but my son was busy studying and and asking to be tested at home for 2 wks.
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Scrabble123




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 21 2015, 12:59 pm
eema of 3 wrote:
But no one is discouraging brightness. People are just saying that EXTRA activities that will be rewarded should be effort based, not academic based. There's enough academics in school already. The extras should be achievable for EVERYONE!


Leah is in Model UN, plays tennis and has a 3.8 GPA. She volunteers 10 hours per month tutoring children who cannot afford tutoring, and is the star player on the chess team.

Sarah has a 4.0 GPA and is apart of the wind instrument ensemble. She also plays tennis.

Rebecca has a 3.8 GPA and volunteers 15 hours per month at a hospital visiting patients. She isn't on a sports team, but volunteers keeping score at random sports events in her school.

The tennis team has a trip planned for their team: Sarah and Leah attend.
The school offers a trip for all students with above a 3.95 GPA. Only Sarah attends.
Model UN has a night out: Leah attends.
The Chessed Club offers a special treat to all individuals who volunteer 15 or more hours per month. Only Rebecca can attend.
The school offers a special performance to students to exemplify excellent behavior and effort in the classroom. Leah, Sarah, and Rebecca are not chosen, but their friend Sima is.

Some extras are academic based, others are based on athletics, clubs, popularity, effort, etc. They do not and should not be achievable for everyone. Everyone is entitled to an education and to be treated as individuals and respected in school. Everyone does not need to be awarded and rewarded all the time. Rewards are very nice, but not being rewarded is not a punishment and rewards are not a right.
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Scrabble123




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 21 2015, 1:01 pm
amother wrote:
This was a project for 8yr old boys. I don't know if all boys worked hard ,but my son was busy studying and and asking to be tested at home for 2 wks.


So 8 years old is a harder age, but it shouldn't make him feel inferior. You are proud of his effort and know he tried his hardest. It doesn't make him less than an individual. I guess at that age it is important to reinforce effort and not make them feel burned, but you as a parent can do that. I hope that the teacher gives all students opportunities at that age to shine. Also, encourage your son to discuss the answers he did not succeed with and see if there are ways to incorporate those misunderstandings and mistakes into his future studying. He didn't learn the information just for the reward, so what he studied is important too (he should not feel it was a waste of his time).
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amother
Turquoise


 

Post Tue, Apr 21 2015, 1:16 pm
Scrabble123 wrote:
Leah is in Model UN, plays tennis and has a 3.8 GPA. She volunteers 10 hours per month tutoring children who cannot afford tutoring, and is the star player on the chess team.

Sarah has a 4.0 GPA and is apart of the wind instrument ensemble. She also plays tennis.

Rebecca has a 3.8 GPA and volunteers 15 hours per month at a hospital visiting patients. She isn't on a sports team, but volunteers keeping score at random sports events in her school.

The tennis team has a trip planned for their team: Sarah and Leah attend.
The school offers a trip for all students with above a 3.95 GPA. Only Sarah attends.
Model UN has a night out: Leah attends.
The Chessed Club offers a special treat to all individuals who volunteer 15 or more hours per month. Only Rebecca can attend.
The school offers a special performance to students to exemplify excellent behavior and effort in the classroom. Leah, Sarah, and Rebecca are not chosen, but their friend Sima is.

Some extras are academic based, others are based on athletics, clubs, popularity, effort, etc. They do not and should not be achievable for everyone. Everyone is entitled to an education and to be treated as individuals and respected in school. Everyone does not need to be awarded and rewarded all the time. Rewards are very nice, but not being rewarded is not a punishment and rewards are not a right.

Scrabble you made me laugh! My son is in a very chareidi yeshiva. There is only one way to shine.
Also about your previous post, you are right but there was nothing to correct for future tests. It was just a matter of memorizing brachos of food.
In general I feel academics should be rewarded based on success. this bothered me since it was a project and not a "subject".
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nyer1




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 21 2015, 1:26 pm
I'm a teacher.




I am appalled at the thought that there should be a class trip that would exclude students who didn't get as high of a mark.
plus, what is the point of a trip to an amusement park as a reward for such a thing? what a strange concept. that seems like a trip for camp, not from yeshiva.

I'm curious about the following:

What assessments did the teacher do while the curriculum was being taught to ensure that every boy got the highest mark possible? or was this last assessment the ONLY part of the grade?
What kind of tracking system was used to ensure boys wouldn't fall behind?
What measures were taken, upon realizing that some students wouldn't achieve as high, to ensure the students got the help that they needed? (differentiation)
What will the boys who didn't get to go on the trip be doing while the rest of the class celebrates?
What does this trip to the amusement park trip teach students?
What does this whole thing accomplish?

there are SO many ways to reward and encourage students to try and do their best. where did this teacher or rebbe get his educational background from? obviously he doesn't realize how damaging this whole thing could be. all it does is show students that they are weak and that some of them shouldn't make the effort at all.


I am so saddened to hear about the education in this school. wow. beyond words right now.
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Ema of 5




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 21 2015, 1:33 pm
Scrabble123 wrote:
Leah is in Model UN, plays tennis and has a 3.8 GPA. She volunteers 10 hours per month tutoring children who cannot afford tutoring, and is the star player on the chess team.

Sarah has a 4.0 GPA and is apart of the wind instrument ensemble. She also plays tennis.

Rebecca has a 3.8 GPA and volunteers 15 hours per month at a hospital visiting patients. She isn't on a sports team, but volunteers keeping score at random sports events in her school.

The tennis team has a trip planned for their team: Sarah and Leah attend.
The school offers a trip for all students with above a 3.95 GPA. Only Sarah attends.
Model UN has a night out: Leah attends.
The Chessed Club offers a special treat to all individuals who volunteer 15 or more hours per month. Only Rebecca can attend.
The school offers a special performance to students to exemplify excellent behavior and effort in the classroom. Leah, Sarah, and Rebecca are not chosen, but their friend Sima is.

Some extras are academic based, others are based on athletics, clubs, popularity, effort, etc. They do not and should not be achievable for everyone. Everyone is entitled to an education and to be treated as individuals and respected in school. Everyone does not need to be awarded and rewarded all the time. Rewards are very nice, but not being rewarded is not a punishment and rewards are not a right.

but thats not what this was, it was not a specific prize for a specific category of people. it was for everyone. so it should be done in such a way that everyone has the opportunity to get it.
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Scrabble123




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 21 2015, 1:36 pm
eema of 3 wrote:
but thats not what this was, it was not a specific prize for a specific category of people. it was for everyone. so it should be done in such a way that everyone has the opportunity to get it.


How is a reward for people with a certain GPA or better effort and behavior not available to everyone?

I agree with the poster above who is discussing the faults of this particular trip and the teacher, but that is separate from the idea of rewarding some students and not others which is often acceptable.
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JAWSCIENCE




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 21 2015, 1:52 pm
Scrabble123 wrote:
I don't know how old the kids were, but in my 9th grade Algebra 2 Trig. Honors class my teacher used to pass out star stickers to people who got above 90% on a test. We were old enough to understand the concept (and actually made fun of the fact that we wanted the starts in 9th grade). There were some kids who did not get stars, but it didn't change how we or anyone else felt about them. I think that this everyone has to be the same is a problem that is rampant in some communities. Some have even tried to eliminate valedictorian because it is "unfair" to other students. There is nothing wrong with rewarding those who have earned it: sometimes that will be attitude based, other times athletically based, other times popularity based, and other times academically based. Not only is it ok, but it is a great way for children to feel good with someone else's success and recognize everyone's talents (and even possibly be a source of encouragement). OP's son does not need to feel left out because he did not go on the trip. This opportunity allows OP to discuss with her son his areas of success, discuss with him ways to improve his academics if applicable, and show him about feeling happy with others' successes.


Who said everyone has to be the same or that good grades should not be rewarded? I said that everybody has a right to keep their grades to themselves. There are ways to reward good grades without divulging the grades of others. When you make a cut off for a prize you automatically divulge that everyone not rewarded got below that cut off. How would you like it if everyone got to see your financial info? Everybody is not the same financially, nor are they entitled to be. I would still bristle at the idea that my financial info should be public. Many children feel that same private feeling about their grades. You are lucky you are not one of them, but they are out there and they have a right to not have their entire class know they got below a 90. For some kids that is akin to a public shaming. Rewarding those who excell should not involve shaming those who don't.

The example of your ninth grade teacher makes me wonder. The sticker was totally worthless, you did not need it. Yet you still wanted it. Why? If this reward had any value above a "great job" or other acknowledging comment from the teacher, it must be because it was a public sign of getting over a certain grade. Which in itself contradicts what you say about it not changing anyones feelings (something you could never know btw, because you are not privy to everyones inner thoughts). It clearly meant something to have everyone know you got above a 90. You were a grade of mentschlich girls who did not treat anyone differently based on their grade, but that doesn't mean the value of the sticker was not the public acknowledgement of superiority over those without it. Nor does it mean it did not change anyones view of themselves. Plus it is not strange that something that might be OK for a group of high school girls is not OK for a group of elementary school boys.

There is nothing wrong with rewarding academic excellence. I support that. What I find distasteful is revealing the failings of other students. And this is coming from someone who would have merited every trip and sticker because I consistently scored one of the best, if not the best, scores in the class and was often not given other privileges to "give some who doesn't do well academically a chance" ( a concept I find distasteful as well). I never told anyone my grade. It was none of their business. I found it weird when people compared or asked each other.

Here's an example form my life, about how much some people value their academic privacy. I go to an ivy league medical school, so you can imagine my classmates are not exactly academic slackers. Well, we had a session to discuss our feelings about medicine and other life stresses recently and somebody said she never tells her parents what she got on a test or her licensing exams or if she has been nominated for an award because she feels those scores are personal. What if it is below what she wanted? What if they don't get what a big deal it is? Others chimed in that they too feel this way because they have always done so well and so much public lauding has lead them to be fearful of revealing grades. These people have grades that most people (even those in other medical schools) would envy, yet they feel they are private and would bristle at the thought of something that revealed they were above or below a certain cut off. OTOH while they aspire to win the award given to the top 5 students in the class, nobody felt that bad about not getting it because it doesn't reveal how they did, it simply says that in an incredibly gifted group they were not the top student.
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JAWSCIENCE




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 21 2015, 1:55 pm
Scrabble123 wrote:


Some extras are academic based, others are based on athletics, clubs, popularity, effort, etc. They do not and should not be achievable for everyone. Everyone is entitled to an education and to be treated as individuals and respected in school. Everyone does not need to be awarded and rewarded all the time. Rewards are very nice, but not being rewarded is not a punishment and rewards are not a right.


I agree with this. Not everybody should get the same reward. You just have to think about how to give the awards in a sensitive and intelligent matter.
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