Yom Hazikaron today. So terribly sad

etky

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 7:21 am

I heard Rav Riskin speak twice today, at two different school ceremonies here in Efrat.
He said something at DS's HS - which lost two graduates over the past year- that addressed the relationship between death and life in the context of Yom Hazikaron. He quoted Martin Luther King actually who said (pardon my translation from Hebrew back into English) that if a person hasn't found a principle, larger than his own individual life, that is worth dying for then his life is not worth living. Obviously we all prefer not to die but to live out a full life guided by such a principle. But those who do die to uphold a guiding principle achieve eternity by having attached themselves to this enduring truth (shades of Rambam, now that I think of it, no?).
Yes, it is an intellectualization of the issue, but I believe that this way of thinking is both what enables our state to survive and to remain, for the most part, resilient and sane.

PinkFridge

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 8:51 am

Etky, such an important point, especially on the heels of Yom Hashoah. For so many people, their connection to Judaism is that through history our people died because they were Jewish, but they don't think about what it means to live because they are Jewish.

The Artscroll siddur carries this commentary in Av Harachamim, from Rav Shamshon Raphael Hirsch, on the word "VaYinkom", "May He..exact retribution":
We do not pray that we be strong enough to avenge our martyrs; Jews are not motivated by a lust to repay violence and murder with violence and murder. Rather we pray that G-d choose how and when to atone for the blood of his fallen martyrs. For the living, decency and integrity remain the primary goals of social life.

The people we mourn today are our best. Whether they were soldiers, who by their very essence were in service to our people, or victims of terror (I don't know the Hebrew name of the book Princes Among Men about the kedoshim of Mercaz Harav but it is a must read), they were people who we should want to be, or at the very least, clearly had transcendent moments of greatness and goodness that we would want to emulate. (I am sure this can be said about our soldiers.) It honors their memory most if we take R. Riskin and Rav Hirsch to heart.

TNTzBH.

PinkFridge

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 12:07 pm

chani8 wrote:

As if life is so wonderful that we'd want to live forever? But yes, death is tragic to those of us who live. I have to believe that for those who die, they go on to a better place. It's just sad and scary because it's 'the unknown'. I'm grateful to believe in G-d and heaven, as it comforts me.

The way and timing of those we remember today is particularly jarring. I'm not G-d's accountant but I feel confident that they're not only in a better place, and a place where they have answers, but a very elevated place within the place.
JMM-uc, as sad and painful as this day is, and especially for those living in E"Y, where it is in the atmosphere, we need to feel some level of simcha, or some positive feeling, that the people who we mourn are OUR people, and the potential and grace we as a people have.

JMM-uc

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 12:40 pm

I get what you guys are saying but it's my heart speaking rather than my mind.

How do you know they're in good place? How do you know they're happy? They can't be, because they don't exist anymore. So they don't feel.

You've never spoken to someone that died...

So it's all up to faith, up to believing that there is a world to come. No one can know for sure.

Sad

so sad. So much that would of wanted to accomplish.

Everything stopped

sourstix

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 12:57 pm

this is to you jmm, our holy ancestors. told us and we believe them. gan eden is the place we receive reward for all good. its not just faith, its in the torah. hashem tells us and its toras moshe misinai, that hashem rewards us for the good we do. we may not see it right away, it might be for future generations or we need to atone for something we have done incorrect to begin with. if we work hard we feel accomplished. what do you have if eth comes without working hard? it has no pleasure and no value. so the dead persons body isnt here and doesnt feel anything. but the godly part of us is in the best place and the person who is gone is a legacy for generations. we talk about the person we remember their actions for generations. its not organized but I think you get what I mean

sourstix

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 1:00 pm

jmm feelings are just feelings, not always based on facts and logic. we feel sad that they arent here bec they could have done so much more good. but they gave up their lives for so many of us. its true that war is sad. its the fact that pp cant get along thats whats sad. and it brings war, and killing pp. thats whats sad.

sourstix

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 1:05 pm

[quote="JMM-uc"]I get what you guys are saying but it's my heart speaking rather than my mind.

How do you know they're in good place? How do you know they're happy? They can't be, because they don't exist anymore. So they don't feel.

You've never spoken to someone that died...

So it's all up to faith, up to believing that there is a world to come. No one can know for sure.

:( so sad. So much that would of wanted to accomplish.

Everything stopped[/quote]

they are happy bec their neshama is closer to the truth. and they dont need material to make them happy the soul is in its resting place. the ultimate peace. their body doesnt exist. the body doesnt need to exist there anymore bec they dont need physical pleasures, they have the spiritual - hakadosh baruch hu, is the essence of light energy peace and things spiritual good. I think if you learn tanya you will probably get better answers. go to chabad.org and see if there is any lectures on tanya. its explained beautifly. my father learns tanya and I remember hearing him say some of these things. toras chabad has beautiful explanations its worth looking for their works.

ora_43

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 1:08 pm

We can't know for sure about the afterlife. OTOH, if there were no afterlife, there would be no need for sympathy for the dead, as there would be no "them" left to mind being dead.

So I do think we can be assured that dead loved ones are at peace, one way or the other.

They would have wanted to accomplish more. But their accomplishments did not end. They continue with the legacy that was left behind. If they had children, those children's accomplishments in a sense belong to the parent. If they had students, same thing. If they did a kindness for someone who then passed that kindness forward to someone else, etc, they may have started a chain of kindness that is still going. Everyone has touched people's lives somehow.

If we do something good today in their memories, then they are still doing good, even though they are gone.

boysrus

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 1:45 pm

I am also feeling very sad today. Somehow this year, I am feeling more pain becuase of the events of last summer in EY, so many soldiers killed in operation protective edge, and I felt so much for htem and cried so much last summer that I guess I feel more connected than ususal. Of course if I lived in EY I am sure that I would feel it even more, and every year as much as this year...

etky

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 4:13 pm

boysrus wrote:

The truth is that almost everyone that I've spoken with has found Yom Hazikaron agonizing this year. It threw us all back to the kidnappings and to Tzuk Eitan - everyone to their own personal trauma of 9 months ago. It's been a long time since we lost so many soldiers in one shot and with Israel being the small place that it is, the ripples of grieving have left almost no one unaffected. Terror continues unabated too and this year two sectors - the ultra-orthodox and French Jewry - felt it more keenly than ever.
I was at two ceremonies at 2 schools today and as I had anticipated they were extremely difficult due to the presence of both longstanding and very freshly bereaved parents and siblings.
This year I let down all my emotional defences. I felt that I owed it to the families, of the newly fallen especially, to empathize in the fullest manner that I was capable of. I also felt a personal need to revisit some of the emotions of last summer. Unfinished business of the soul. I think that the country, as a whole, felt similarly. Our mayor had an entire auditorium weeping last night (himself included) as he recounted the story of how the Hyman family received the news of the death of their son Yuval z"l in battle last summer.
It's Yom Ha'atzmaut now but people are feeling really wrung out. The transition is harder this year.

PinkFridge

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 8:15 pm

JMM-uc wrote:

so sad. So much that would of wanted to accomplish.

Everything stopped

You're a good person. That's why you feel.
I've dealt with very premature death, closely before, and had to work through a lot. Though the losses you're thinking of today are very, tragically different. Crying