R' Kanievsky and his list of names....

Ruchel

Fri, Apr 24 2015, 10:12 am

Mesora makes a name " a name" or "Jewish".

Rashi, even, gave one of his daughters a Judeo French name.

That said, yes these names were all made up or adopted from locals, be it in Tanach times, Middle Ages... I don't think we are on the level to make up names anymore. But still, Liora, Liat or wtv is a pretty normal and accepted name.

DrMom

Fri, Apr 24 2015, 10:14 am

dimyona wrote:

This is a huge peeve of mine. In my community, parents aren't expected to choose names of their own, and they almost always check it with the rebbe because giving a name is considered such a holy and powerful thing.

But so many of the names, especially girls' names, are completely secular Yiddish/Russian terms or derivatives of non-Jewish names. I have one of those names, and although I happen to like the sound of it, it has no Jewish meaning whatsoever. Wouldn't it be more Jewish to have named me something like Shira that is at least from Lashon Kodesh?

I don't have any daughters, but I hope that when I do I can choose a name that I love and that has meaning to me. I don't see how it's better to name someone after a chicken or a gold coin just because there's a mesora for it. It clearly started somewhere, and I don't think they spoke Yiddish at Har Sinai.

What happens if parents give names without checking with a rebbe first?

dimyona

Fri, Apr 24 2015, 10:22 am

DrMom wrote:

What happens if parents give names without checking with a rebbe first?

Good question, because I don't know many people who have "dared" not to ask. It's usually a given that these lofty matters aren't for us mortals to decide. I don't think anyone would be punished for not asking, but it would be seen as beyond the social norms and somewhat arrogant not to ask.

Ema of 5

Fri, Apr 24 2015, 10:28 am

dimyona wrote:

im confused....I thought parents have some sort of "ruach hakodesh" when naming their children....does the rebbe have this too?

dimyona

Fri, Apr 24 2015, 10:34 am

eema of 3 wrote:

im confused....I thought parents have some sort of "ruach hakodesh" when naming their children....does the rebbe have this too?

I've heard a proverb that says that the parents are given ruach hakodesh, and then the grandparents take it away. I guess sometimes the rebbe adds his to the mix as well.

(Grandparents, because in this same community there is a strict protocol about naming after grandparents, and it follows a specific order that dictates names for all your children based on the family tree.)

Usually the rebbe will just give an okay to make the parents feel good. Sometimes they'll suggest adding a specific name, or calling the child by one name vs. the other.

Sadie

Fri, Apr 24 2015, 10:34 am

eema of 3 wrote:

im confused....I thought parents have some sort of "ruach hakodesh" when naming their children....does the rebbe have this too?

Also don't they have relatives they want to name after?
Do parents go to the rebbe and ask for advice, for example, on which grandfather to name after or whether to add a name after someone who died young, or does the rebbe just straight up say, "name this baby X"

ETA I see my question was answered while I was posting!

Scrabble123

Fri, Apr 24 2015, 10:36 am

eema of 3 wrote:

im confused....I thought parents have some sort of "ruach hakodesh" when naming their children....does the rebbe have this too?

Not every chassid asks his rebbe about a name. They may ask if they are deciding between two names, need a name to add, or if they want to give a name and are not so comfortable with it. It is more of "blessing" than "tell me what to name my child...?" There are definitely many grandparents who tell their kids what to name their grandchildren. That's wrong, but an entirely difference subject.

Scrabble123

Fri, Apr 24 2015, 10:43 am

eema of 3 wrote:

so lets name our boys after alexander, who was a land hungry murderer, instead of the beautiful perek shira or shiras hayam or shiras chana or shiras devorah. cuz that makes lots of sense.
we dont name our boys after nimrod or nevuchadnetzar cuz they did bad things to the jews, but because alexander was nice to the jews, lets name our boys after him, even though he was a rutheless conqueror.

First of all, today when you give the name Alexander today, it is usually after a grandparent and not a ruthless conqueror, although that is where the name originated. Jews have a mesorah of naming after rulers who treated them well. That is not a new concept, although no one would name after a President today. =I was just stating that I believe the issue with Shira is that it has no mesorah as a name. Apple is also a nice, trendy name, but is it a name? There are some words like Menucha that have a mesora as a name and words like Eitz and Shira that do not.

There are also individuals who will not give their children Yiddish names derived from the vernacular like Charna, Aigy, etc. They have a shitta to only give names from Lashon Kodesh (and possibly Aramaic - I'd have to double check that). There are an endless amount of shittas out there...

I don't really have such an opinion on the matter because I believe that parents should name their children how they please.

Ema of 5

Fri, Apr 24 2015, 10:58 am

Scrabble123 wrote:

I understand, but that doesnt change the fact that it originated from somewhere, like all names. my point is, why is alexander more acceptable (or why was it back then) than shira? I understand he was good to the jews, but he WAS NOT A GOOD PERSON!! dont we believe that the name has some sort of baring on the person? thats why some people dont name after people who died young, or of sudden illness, or who had a very hard life. so if thats the case, wouldnt the fact that alexander was a terrible person lead us to stay away? daryavesh (or was it coresh?) was good to the jews, but we dont name our kids after him....why not?
we dont give out children yiddish names, not as a shita specifically, but just because we dont.

Ruchel

Fri, Apr 24 2015, 11:07 am

And still the gedolim of this generation decided we DO give Alexander. The first generation WAS after him. Now of course it's after family or "stam" not for him anymore. But yes we do name Alexander (and more rarely, Alexandra).

I know at least two frum Shlomit Alexandra.

Quote:

daryavesh (or was it coresh?) was good to the jews, but we dont name our kids after him....why not?

We do. Not in Imamother circles, but for ex Italians do. Incl in rabbinic families.

Ema of 5

Fri, Apr 24 2015, 11:11 am

Ruchel wrote:

Quote:

daryavesh (or was it coresh?) was good to the jews, but we dont name our kids after him....why not?

We do. Not in Imamother circles, but for ex Italians do. Incl in rabbinic families.

you learn something new every day Smile

amother

Slateblue

Fri, Apr 24 2015, 12:48 pm

I wish that gedolim would keep this kind of advice in the family and for the family, rather than making pronouncements for everyone. Like the will of R' Yehuda hachosid.

Even though in my circles Shira is a prefectly normal name, it makes me sad that there is now a "shita" that disapproves of it.
I love my name!

-Shira

bandcm

Fri, Apr 24 2015, 2:33 pm

Just for those people wondering why we use Alexander - a non-Jewish name
When Alexander the Great entered Jerusalem, he toured the Bais Hamikdash and was so impressed, he offered to allow the Jews to set up a statue of himself in the Bais Hamikdash! This was a big honour, but obviously impossible for the Jews. Shimon Hatzaddik, the kohen gadol and Nasi at the time, was very wise, and said, "Why should we have a dead piece of marble paying homage to you? I have a better idea! This coming year, every baby boy born in Jerusalem will be named Alexander, in your honour!" Alexander loved this, and there you have it.

zaq

Fri, Apr 24 2015, 7:04 pm

cbg wrote:

Sometimes, people with Yiddish names are called at the Torah by a Hebrew name. Most Motles I know are really Mordechai.

And sometimes people with Yiddish names have only Yiddish names, that may or may not be corruptions of secular names in other languages. Sometimes a Leib is just a Leib, not an Aryeh Leib or a Yehuda Leib. And women's names, whoa. Many of them have zero Jewish connection, not even translations of Hebrew names like Hirsh for Zvi and Velvel or Vulf for Ze'ev. Zlata or Zelda, Slavic for gold. No Jewish connection. Are there any Zahavas in Tanach? Charna, Russian for black and Beila, Russian for white. No Levanas in tanach, either, But plenty of Beilas. Bluma or Blima, Yiddish for flower. Why is Bluma OK and Shira not? then there's Bella, Italian for beautiful, though this may be a misinterpretation of Beila. Yenta, a corruption of Ionthe or Yolanda. All very respected and accepted frum names, taken straight from the "nations of the world."

What makes these names acceptable and some perfectly nice modern--or modern-SOUNDING even if from tanach--names not acceptable? I'lll tell you: custom, familiarity, and mazal. When enough people do something often enough for long enough, it becomes acceptable and eventually mainstream. Need I remind you that Chassidus started out as a grassroots movement rebelling against the religious establishment, so "out there" that they were put into cherem by The Vilna Gaon? And look at them now.

Even a name has to have mazal. Why is Daniel popular, Chananiah rare, Mishael unheard of and Azariyah "too modern"? All good friends, all tzadikim, all in the Good Book. Yet one name makes it to the top of the charts, one languishes at the bottom, one isn't even on the chart and one isn't even in the running.

zaq

Sat, Apr 25 2015, 9:30 pm

And here is another thing: is there not a tradition that parents have ruach hakodesh when they name their children? Now, either some names are acceptable and some are not, in which case the ruach hakodesh bit is a myth, or the ruach hakodesh bit is true, in which case parents need neither guidance nor lists. You cannot have it both ways.