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Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions
Do Gdolim have a new approach towards the Agunah crisis?
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goodmorning




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 26 2015, 2:14 pm
causemommysaid wrote:
what about requiring every Jewish man to leave a "get al tenai" with a central bais din before they actually get married.

The central bais din can have rules about releasing this get to the woman if she requests it such as

1- couple must be separated for 3 months before releasing it
2- all secular court stuff must be completed first
3- a kohains wife waits an extra couple months since she can never change her mind

etc.

That way the get will be out of the husbands hands even before the marriage starts and the added rules will ensure that it doesn't become a free for all that every time newlyweds get mad the wife requests her get.


SA EH 148:1
Quote:

אֲבָל אִם שְׁלָחוֹ לָהּ עַל יְדֵי שָׁלִיחַ, וְנִתְיַחֵד עִמָּהּ אַחַר שֶׁנְּתָנוֹ לְיַד הַשָּׁלִיחַ, וּנְתָנוֹ לָהּ הַשָּׁלִיחַ, לֹא תִּנָּשֵׂא בּוֹ


Quote:

if he sent [a get] to her through an agent, and then he secluded himself with her after he gave the get to the agent and after the get was delivered, then she may not get married with the get [as evidence that she was legally divorced]


If a husband gives a get to a shaliach to give to his wife, and then is secluded with her (and especially if he lives with her in the manner of married couples) the original get is invalidated.
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causemommysaid




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 26 2015, 2:31 pm
goodmorning wrote:
If a husband gives a get to a shaliach to give to his wife, and then is secluded with her (and especially if he lives with her in the manner of married couples) the original get is invalidated.


I am sure there can be a work around.

They find loopholes for everything else.

Maybe the get can only be considered "live" once certain criteria is met.
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aquad




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 26 2015, 2:49 pm
The Beth Din of America's prenup: http://theprenup.org/rabbinic.html
All that it does is compel the husband to support his wife per his obligations- ie pay her $150 a day.
It has the haskamah of a number of Rabbanim, including Rabbi Gedalia Dov Schwartz and Rabbi Ovadia Yosef zt'l.
In all cases where the prenup was administered properly (signed and witnessed by a notary, etc), a get was given in a timely fashion.
Some Yeshivish/Charedi rabbanim do not approve of this prenup. I do not know why. If there are some halakhic issues with it, I wonder why there is not more of an emphasis to find a way to force recalcitrant husbands to give a get while keeping halacha- why aren't there as many articles/shiurim/announcements about this issue as there are about the shidduch crisis?
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goodmorning




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 26 2015, 3:21 pm
causemommysaid wrote:
I am sure there can be a work around.

They find loopholes for everything else.

Maybe the get can only be considered "live" once certain criteria is met.


My overall point is precisely that sometimes no loopholes exist and there is no work-around. Viewing halacha as a malleable tool that must always somehow able to give us what we want is a dangerous way of thinking.

There may be loopholes on an individual level. There may even be loopholes on a communal level. But there is no guaranteed existence of loopholes and viewing the situation as though if rabbonim cared enough, they'd find said loopholes is flat-out wrong.

With that, I'm out of here.
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Rutabaga




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 26 2015, 3:38 pm
Can a marriage be legally/halachically annulled once there are children?
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bruriyah




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 26 2015, 3:58 pm
goodmorning wrote:
My overall point is precisely that sometimes no loopholes exist and there is no work-around. Viewing halacha as a malleable tool that must always somehow able to give us what we want is a dangerous way of thinking.

There may be loopholes on an individual level. There may even be loopholes on a communal level. But there is no guaranteed existence of loopholes and viewing the situation as though if rabbonim cared enough, they'd find said loopholes is flat-out wrong.

With that, I'm out of here.


I think you're wrong.

If you look, for example, at the entire way niddah is dealt with, the attitude is to "get away" with as much as possible. Women who stain a lot are told not to look. Women who are halachically infertile are given heterim that at first glance seem like flagrant violations of niddah.

Think of selling chametz. You know, owning chametz on pesach is an issur of kareis (or is it just eating? not sure) But anyway, it's very serious, and yet rabbonim have found a way to get around it so that someone doesn't lose his business - something not nearly as awful as being an agunah.

There are many more examples. And for me, the "get krisus" is proof that if there is a sudden widespread phenomenon of agunos, rabbis must do something.

As much as I think many rabbis are good people who try their best, it's just not always humanly possible to feel anothers' pain if you are never threatened by that very thing. And so it is up to those who are threatened, the women, to speak up with a loud enough voice that enacts change.

I think the attitude of "this is just the way it is... the hands of the [infallible] rabbonim are tied" is very detrimental to the plight of agunos.
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ValleyMom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 26 2015, 4:18 pm
VERY CONFUSED ABOUT THIS AGUNA SITUATION!!!

Please someone PM me and shed light on this- this is one topic that is NEVER broached in yeshiva high school or seminary.

My friend recently had a bais din submit paperwork to her spouse for divorce proceedings.

He hired a "Toen" WHAT is a TOEN?
I never heard of this term.
Is he a lawyer?
Paralegal?
What type of schooling is required?
Is there certification and credentials involved that we can ask to examine?

ALSO

Correct me if I'm wrong...
From what I can understand a woman can ask for a divorce and the man can refuse.
She can get a civil divorce but cannot ever date or marry a drum man without a Get.

Her ex-husband can date and marry without a formal Get being filed.

Is this accurate?
It makes no sense tho me.

Clearly I am missing some component.
They have NO assets together.
No home.
No jewelry
No silver
Just 2 leased cars and a mountain of debt that he has accrued.

ARE WE LIVING IN A MANS WORLD OR WHAT??!

LOOKING FOR CLARIFICATION--PLEASE PM ME. OR POST IN THIS FORUM.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 26 2015, 4:52 pm
marina wrote:
If you think about a wife beater, for example, it's difficult to understand why he shouldn't be viewed as worse than a gay man. Homosexuality, as we know, is certainly against halacha, but the gay person himself isn't evil or wicked- we can't really control whom we are attracted to.

But beating your wife? That's not an inborn issue. It could certainly be seen as an "abomination and most disgusting thing, a "disgrace to the whole family," and "degrading," and "repulsive," and "debased," don't you think?

Not to start the gay debate again, but I think it's very telling if orthodox Judaism views homosexuality as that much more offensive than domestic violence. Do you disagree?


Don't think I'm ignoring you. I don't have an answer. If I had a kesher to Rav Dovid Feinstein shlit"a I'd ask him.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 26 2015, 4:53 pm
goodmorning wrote:
My overall point is precisely that sometimes no loopholes exist and there is no work-around. Viewing halacha as a malleable tool that must always somehow able to give us what we want is a dangerous way of thinking.

There may be loopholes on an individual level. There may even be loopholes on a communal level. But there is no guaranteed existence of loopholes and viewing the situation as though if rabbonim cared enough, they'd find said loopholes is flat-out wrong.

With that, I'm out of here.


Goodmorning, sorry you're out of here. Evidently a lot of other people are because I can't think of any other reason your post hasn't got more likes.
Climate change is real and it's happening here.
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causemommysaid




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 26 2015, 5:38 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
Goodmorning, sorry you're out of here. Evidently a lot of other people are because I can't think of any other reason your post hasn't got more likes.
Climate change is real and it's happening here.


not everyone agrees with her assessment of the agunah situation.


There are heterim and workarounds on a communal level when the need was great enough.

Therefore some of us conclude that the need is not great enough for agunos. Not enough of us are suffering with this for the dayanim to come up with a solution.
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abemom2




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 26 2015, 7:50 pm
Another issue is that in the past, when a man was a Mesurav Beis Din, or put in cheirem for not giving a get - it really worked. Today, people don't respect Rabbonim as much, and ignore it.

Men on these lists, should NEVER be allowed at a minyan, or invited to someone's Shabbos table. If we as a community, would follow this, it would definitely help some of the agunos.
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mirror




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 26 2015, 11:51 pm
Where is Harav Mendel Epstein Shlita when you need him?
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amother
Linen


 

Post Sun, Apr 26 2015, 11:57 pm
I don't think we can do what Epstein did anymore-sounds cruel but chaining a woman and not being able to remarry and go on with her life is extremely pathetic and sad. Ostracizing them from the community no job shul not being able to rent an apartment may just do it. We need the cooperation of the community
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 27 2015, 4:32 am
Rutabaga wrote:
Can a marriage be legally/halachically annulled once there are children?

Yes. No harm is done to the children by making their parents retroactively not married to one another.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 27 2015, 4:33 am
amother wrote:
back when we had a Besdin that was a real Besdin with real legal authority, it would give the recalcitrant husband malkos until he agreed to give a get "of his own free will" and it was not considered coercion. The malkos were punishment for violating the law, refusing to give a get where halacha requires it. There are many situations in which halacha REQUIRES a man to divorce his wife if she demands it. One of these is if he makes her life unbearable in some way, such as developing a repulsive physical condition or habit that his wife finds it impossible to live with, or engaging in a trade that gives him an offensive odor that she can't stand. Being physically or verbally abusive also comes under the rubric of making her life unbearable. If he is a "mored" and refuses her conjugal rights, if he forces her to violate taharat hamishpacha, if she wants to move to EY and he refuses, he MUST give her a get. There are many others, these are just a few examples. If he refuses to do so, the Besdin has the authority to give him malkos as long as he continues to violate the law. Unfortunately, today's Besdin has no such legal authority.

"But it would not stop with that, alas!" - Galadriel
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 27 2015, 8:48 am
imasoftov wrote:
Yes. No harm is done to the children by making their parents retroactively not married to one another.


No, just possibly to future children.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 27 2015, 10:06 am
PinkFridge wrote:
No, just possibly to future children.

Please make your point clearly. Thank you.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 27 2015, 12:10 pm
imasoftov wrote:
Please make your point clearly. Thank you.


While annulling a marriage doesn't impact the kids, if the annulment isn't legitimate - and it might not always be - how would that impact the woman's future children from another marriage?
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self-actualization




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 27 2015, 12:44 pm
It needs to hit a critical mass of acceptance. This is from a Mark Oppenheimer article about a case where rabbis did use a halachic means of freeing a woman:

This declaration could prompt a real schism between some Orthodox and other, more right-leaning Orthodox Jews. If this case sets a precedent, rabbinic courts may begin “freeing” more women, who go on to re-marry, while their husbands are convinced the old marriage is still in effect. Then, the children produced by the new marriages will be considered mamserim, or bastards — a huge stigma in Judaism. The children will be shunned, the mothers will be shunned, and the rabbis who performed the women’s second marriages will be written out of some precincts of Orthodoxy.

To which those women, and their rabbis, and their male and female supporters, could say: “Who cares?” And if they have a critical mass of support, it is their ex-husbands and their supporters who will be marginalized. I once asked a prominent Orthodox rabbi how many rabbis it would take to support new, more liberal measures to free agunot. “90 percent,” he answered. “If 90 percent of Orthodox rabbis were with us, the other 10 percent could scream ‘Mamserim!’ all they wanted, but they’d fall in line.”
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iluvy




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 27 2015, 2:21 pm
bruriyah wrote:
I think you're wrong.

If you look, for example, at the entire way niddah is dealt with, the attitude is to "get away" with as much as possible. Women who stain a lot are told not to look. Women who are halachically infertile are given heterim that at first glance seem like flagrant violations of niddah.

Think of selling chametz. You know, owning chametz on pesach is an issur of kareis (or is it just eating? not sure) But anyway, it's very serious, and yet rabbonim have found a way to get around it so that someone doesn't lose his business - something not nearly as awful as being an agunah.

There are many more examples. And for me, the "get krisus" is proof that if there is a sudden widespread phenomenon of agunos, rabbis must do something.

As much as I think many rabbis are good people who try their best, it's just not always humanly possible to feel anothers' pain if you are never threatened by that very thing. And so it is up to those who are threatened, the women, to speak up with a loud enough voice that enacts change.

I think the attitude of "this is just the way it is... the hands of the [infallible] rabbonim are tied" is very detrimental to the plight of agunos.


The halachos of nidda that we keep today are mainly chumros accepted upon themselves by previous generations of women. The heterim that are given are on those chumros, not on the core kareis prohibition of nidda.

It is assur to own chametz on Pesach; it is easy to play around with ownership in halacha. It is not so simple to find heterim for a get, the validity of which is based on the giver's intentions. Not everything has a loophole, especially when the consequences of infringement (adultery, mamzerus) are so terrible.

I have often been struck in biographies of gedolim by how seriously they took the problem of agunos. I heard that when someone told Rav Shach a lomdishe vort, he would say, "That's nice, but how does that help me free agunos?" I do strongly believe that the frum world needs more women in positions of authority, but it's a bit facile to say "they're men so they don't care."

I think the blame for the agunah crisis lies on the community, on the people who say "there are two sides to every story." No one should rent an apartment to a man who refuses to give a get, or give him a job, or even speak to him. If these men were completely ostracized, gets would come through a lot faster. (And I do have a lot of sympathy for the taser solution.)
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