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Forum
-> Interesting Discussions
Ruchel
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Mon, Jun 11 2007, 1:09 pm
We all know the differences between Mo, Orthodox and charedi/ultra.
Now... what makes someone modern chassidish as opposed to chassidish? modern Litvish as opposed to Litvish?
Again, no flaming or bashing, use amother if need be but no one becomes mean or it will get locked and I will be sad
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Blossom
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Mon, Jun 11 2007, 1:33 pm
To me Modern Chassidim is being Chassidish just by the fact that you stem from Chassidim but you don't necessarily keep certain Chassidishe Chumros.
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Ruchel
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Mon, Jun 11 2007, 1:38 pm
Ok. Then, in your definition someone Mo is modern chassidish if he comes from chassidic ancestors? Even if his observance has nothing to do with the "level" of chassidism? Or do you need a minimal chassidic observance?
I'm trying very hard to understand the concept as I haven't encountered it irl.
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DefyGravity
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Mon, Jun 11 2007, 1:38 pm
Ruchel wrote: | We all know the differences between Mo, Orthodox and charedi/ultra. |
Really? Then why are people that I would consider Modern Yeshivish (or even regular Yeshivish) in the MO forum?
I think that MO is the most difficult term to define. A whole spectrum of people call themselves MO.
Last edited by DefyGravity on Mon, Jun 11 2007, 1:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mevater
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Mon, Jun 11 2007, 1:42 pm
IMO:
Modern Chassidic or Modern Litvish= Chassidic or Litvish by descent or general ideology, but not totally observant of old customs (modernized) in practice.
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Ruchel
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Mon, Jun 11 2007, 1:46 pm
I haven't noticed. Who is yeshivish in the Mo forum?
By the way, I don't really get yeshivish either... what's the definition?
It's true that the most machmir Mo can pass for Orthodox and the most machmir O. for ultra. But generally there are some criteria that puts you in this or that category (at least for me, what I've seen, etc).
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Ruchel
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Mon, Jun 11 2007, 1:49 pm
letsbehonest wrote: | IMO:
Modern Chassidic or Modern Litvish= Chassidic or Litvish by descent or general ideology, but not totally observant of old customs (modernized) in practice. |
Not totally observant, but to what extent. For example, can you find MC or ML without tights/socks? hair showing a tefach? or very modern ones with no haircovering at all?
I'm sure people from smaller communities are as lost as I am about this lol
Even Mo is a rather new concept in France in fact.
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DefyGravity
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Mon, Jun 11 2007, 1:52 pm
Ruchel wrote: | I haven't noticed. Who is yeshivish in the Mo forum?
By the way, I don't really get yeshivish either... what's the definition?
It's true that the most machmir Mo can pass for Orthodox and the most machmir O. for ultra. But generally there are some criteria that puts you in this or that category (at least for me, what I've seen, etc). |
Aren't Modern Orthodox Orthodox? Thus the O in MO?
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JRKmommy
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Mon, Jun 11 2007, 1:55 pm
I would describe myself as "modern Chabad", and that also describes many in my shul.
By that, I mean that the "level" kept is basically that of MO: following basic halacha, but taking advantage of common heters and not taking on chumras or following Lubavitch minhagim. Bacon cheeseburgers are out, but drinking chalav stam and eating matzo ball soup on Pesach is fine. We dress in a MO style (except for little ds, who at the age of 2 seems to be obsessed with anything Chassidic and threw a tantrum DEMANDING to wear a black suit and white shirt last Shabbat).
However, the rabbi is not MO, and there isn't a teaching of specifically MO outlook. There is an emphasis on the teachings of the Rebbe, specifically those aspects which really do apply to all Jews. In my shul, most would not regard the Rebbe as the absolute final authority on all matters, but do have tremendous respect for his accomplishments and would be interested in what his views were. There is an appreciation for the basic philosophy - the emphasis on ahavat yisrael, the drive to reach out to all Jews, the notion of the importance of every Jewish soul, the focus on always doing just a little more re mitzvahs in order to bring Moshiach sooner.... For some of us, it feels more spiritual and positive than the version of Judaism with which we were raised.
Just my $0.02, of course. I can't speak for anyone else, or any groups other than mine.
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Ruchel
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Mon, Jun 11 2007, 1:58 pm
Yes, and ultra Orthodox too are Orthodox. But we definitely need something between Mo and ultra, so in France we have Orthodox, without implying Mo or charedim aren't Orthodox... just that the Orthodox are neither modern nor ultra, just in the middle... why would I imply something else, I AM Mo.
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Ruchel
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Mon, Jun 11 2007, 2:03 pm
JRKmommy wrote: |
However, the rabbi is not MO, and there isn't a teaching of specifically MO outlook. |
I totally get it. There is no Mo rabbinical school in France, so we have no Mo rabbis at all. Everyone goes to Orthodox or charedi shul, unless they want to go the liberal (Conservative) way. But b'h 90% of the shuls are Orthodox.
Thanks for the explanation
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Motek
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Tue, Jun 12 2007, 8:12 pm
Ruchel wrote: |
Now... what makes someone modern chassidish as opposed to chassidish? modern Litvish as opposed to Litvish? |
How's this for a definition:
someone who, in dress and behavior, does less than his or her parents or grandparents (whoever would be called chassidish/yeshivish)
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mimivan
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Tue, Jun 12 2007, 8:40 pm
Motek wrote: | Ruchel wrote: |
Now... what makes someone modern chassidish as opposed to chassidish? modern Litvish as opposed to Litvish? |
How's this for a definition:
someone who, in dress and behavior, does less than his or her parents or grandparents (whoever would be called chassidish/yeshivish) |
What about BTs who are "modern" Chabad?
heck, people in my neighborhood think we are "modern" Chabad just because we have the internet. Even though we try to follow all the minhagim...
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Motek
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Tue, Jun 12 2007, 9:39 pm
BT's are obviously in a category of their own in this context since they are doing MORE than their parents (if they are BT's who were not raised frum).
Though when BT's join the modern element of a group, they are choosing to emulate those who are doing less than they should be doing ...
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chocolate moose
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Tue, Jun 12 2007, 9:46 pm
I've said it before, I don't think the word should be "Modern". Unless you think it means "less concerned about what is religious"...and mimivan, I'm sure you don't mean that!
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Blossom
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Tue, Jun 12 2007, 9:52 pm
Quote: | How's this for a definition:
someone who, in dress and behavior, does less than his or her parents or grandparents (whoever would be called chassidish/yeshivish) |
Sorry Motek but I find your definiton a little insulting and a little wrong.
I think it could be the opposite too. People who are leaning towards Chassidus and picked up some Chassidishe minhagim but are not that Chassidish thus their Modern Chassidish lifestyle.
DH wears a shtreimel, his grandparents didn't. One of them wasn't Chassidish and that whole side of my husband isn't really Chassidish but some of the grandkids are. Thus many of them are Modern Chassidish.
And by no means do I mean that the grandkids are more than their grandfather, but just trying to prove my point.
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MOM222
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Tue, Jun 12 2007, 9:54 pm
I don't like the term modern chassidish, to me a better term is Heimish.
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shoy18
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Tue, Jun 12 2007, 9:57 pm
MOM222 wrote: | I don't like the term modern chassidish, to me a better term is Heimish. |
Lol when I think heimish I think, kugel, chulent, and gefillte fish!!!
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Ruchel
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Tue, Jun 12 2007, 9:57 pm
So a Mo person of Chabad descent is modern Chabad, for example? even with no Chabad minhag kept?
Heimish is another word I dont get... definition please? lol
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MOM222
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Tue, Jun 12 2007, 10:02 pm
shoy18 wrote: | MOM222 wrote: | I don't like the term modern chassidish, to me a better term is Heimish. |
Lol when I think heimish I think, kugel, chulent, and gefillte fish!!! |
ok more like Heimish Chassidish. How does that sound?
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