Anyone outside of EY keep yoshon?

amother

Floralwhite

Mon, Apr 27 2015, 7:59 pm

I've been thinking about keeping yoshon for a while now, especially post pesach. It seems like it's higher than keeping CY yet relatively uncommon. We live in a time now where it's much easier than it ever was before to keep yoshon outside of EY yet I don't hear much about it. I don't necessarily want to be "frummer than your rabbi" but I do think it deserves some serious consideration?

Also it would be very easy to start now, lol. Anyone else decide to take it on? If you do keep yoshon, why? I mean other than the fact that it's doraisa. Did you marry into it, raised that way, or take it upon yourselves?

Anyone have a book suggestion on hits his topic? Obviously we are going to discuss it with out rav, but I was curious about others.

I do realize that in some communities (especially in ours) would present difficulties during play dates, Shabbos invites, and even school functions.

Posting anon because I have been discussing this at length with many friends and acquaintances.

goodmorning

Mon, Apr 27 2015, 8:08 pm

Yes.

For absolute starters, get the Guide to Chodosh. It is published 3x/ year and you can pay for a subscription or get it emailed as a pdf for free. It gives date guidelines for products -- I.e., calculations based on the "best by" date as to when the packing date was, and from that, what the yoshon cutoff is.

It depends where you live, but in many "in town" cities, most bakeries / restaurants / catering is yoshon.

Re: difficulties -- they are not insurmountable, but neither is this an "all or nothing" deal. You can accept the hakpada on yoshon on yourselves, bli neder, but not for outside your home ... or not for your children ... or not outside your city ... etc. and gradually ease into it. Put another way: eating only yoshon inside your home (and safek chodosh out) is better than eating safek chodosh in and out! If that is the real roadblock, don't let it deter you.

(By the way, your subject line and post exclude Sfardim who must l'halacha be makpid on yoshon even in chul.)

Last edited by goodmorning on Mon, Apr 27 2015, 8:09 pm; edited 1 time in total

working hard

Mon, Apr 27 2015, 8:09 pm

Yoshon observance is growing in America. The Guide to Chodosh is sent to over 2,000 people. In addition, there are over 3,000 online downloads each season. So, yes many people keep it and even more do not. More and more Hashgachos are certifiying Yoshon. If you do keep it, the guide makes it much easier as it provides information and date codes.
There is a website about it that is not endorsed by the guide but has a lot of useful information: yoshonnetwork.com. You can also download last year's guide there.
Right now, in America, everything is Yoshon. The Chodosh season usually starts towards the end of July.
Most people who keep it now either took it on themselves or their parents did. It's growth is pretty recent. Although I know of many exceptions who always were careful about it.
As far as other houses, ask your Rav, but I know of many people who are careful only in their own house and not out of the house.
Any questions please ask!
By the way, I work for the Guide.

salt

Tue, Apr 28 2015, 1:34 am

What is yoshon/chadash? Can anyone give a basic explanation?

Iymnok

Tue, Apr 28 2015, 2:09 am

Yashon is grain harvested before pesach. So right now we all eat only yashon!

m in Israel

Tue, Apr 28 2015, 2:42 am

salt wrote:

What is yoshon/chadash? Can anyone give a basic explanation?

This is a pretty good overview:

http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/.....w.htm

Basically it is an issur d'oraisah to eat from each year's grain until after the time when the Korbon Omer was brought which is the second day of Pesach. Flour (or other grain products) that is considered from this year (based on when it takes root) is considered "chodosh" and prohibited until after Pesach when it becomes "yoshon".

There are some opinions that say that this chiyuv only applies in Eretz Yisroel, which became the basis for allowing the widespread use of chodosh in chul. People who are "makpid" on yoshon do not rely on this kulah and are careful even out of EY only to eat products made with flour from the previous year. It is basically applicable from the end of the summer when new flour comes out until Pesach. As previous posters have said, there is a guide put out that can help you figure out which products are "yoshon" and which are not based on the brands and the dates/codes on the packages.

Ruchel

Tue, Apr 28 2015, 4:09 am

I don't know of this in my country but definitely heard in america

Hashem_Yaazor

Tue, Apr 28 2015, 5:47 am

amother wrote:

We keep it. Despite our rabbonim not doing so Wink

We don't think of ourselves as frummer than them (nor do we keep CY when they do!) My husband has had halachic debates at length with our rav regarding it, but didn't make any headway. I started keeping it when I got married to my husband who holds it l'halacha (it's not a chumra for us). My husband was not brought up with it, but his parents are makpid in the house now. He came to it on his own through his learning, his shul rav at the time, and Rabbi Heinemann of the Star K. Most of our hadracha on keeping yoshon is from Rabbi Heinemann.

I do not know of any books on the subject, other than The Guide to Chodosh, put out by Rabbi Herman. You can also check yoshon.com for information on this topic as well as an online date guide taken from Rabbi Herman's phenomenal work.

We keep yoshon in a community where no other family does. We hope with time people realize it's doable (people stopped when they moved here), and we are part of a Yoshon Exchange (we have a non-profit gemach type of thing to buy yoshon food during the season it's hard to find), and it works well for people with visiting guests especially. As far as my kids eating out at friends' houses, my husband said under the age of chinuch we don't have to make a fuss over it and while we won't feed them, we're not double checking with every parent to make sure they know the rules. Anyway, my little ones don't have as many playdates. My kids from 5 and up know to ask if something is yoshon, they know grains are an issue, and I have had parents call to ask me if things are ok. There are usually options for them (pretzels since we're not makpid on the malt, some of the heimish brands locally as they are old enough or imported from E"Y, or non-grain items). School lunches is an issue and we bought bread for the kids to have sandwiches on yoshon bread. Other school functions were usually not so problematic (my husband is meikil on bakery cake for the kids as per Rabbi Heinemann since most cake flour is winter wheat), though we did have to work out some alternatives for pizza prizes (brought homemade or frozen pizza, had fries instead in the restaurant). I won't deny it's challenging to make sure your kids don't feel like they are losing out, but it's mechazek me to see how many people have other hakpados and managed to instill a sense of value for them in their kids. Buying flour during the year is actually fairly easy as Gold Medal from the KC plant which I've always found is winter wheat, and King Arthur has a run that is fine too....We don't eat out except at relatives for Shabbos lunch, and my relatives know enough and aren't embarrassed to ask me questions if things are ok. Shul kiddush was hard as the barley was not ok, but I think we're going to work on supplying yoshon barley this coming year when their cheaper brand starts being a problem. Mezonos was an issue and I usually didn't eat there.

morah

Tue, Apr 28 2015, 5:58 am

We keep it. Our Rav holds of it. Although he doesn't push it on anyone, it's always his first recommendation if you want to take something on. It's not a chumra, it is a stricter psak on a particular question. Do you need to keep yoshon in chutz la'aretz? Some say yes, some say no. If you hold by yes, then it's halacha for you, if you hold by no, that's halacha too. You have heavy hitters on both sides. BTW, it can be confusing at first. We messed up our first year, so definitely sign up for Rav Herman's guide. Also, come here, Hashem Yaazor is helpful too :-)

piece

Tue, Apr 28 2015, 6:08 am

a year into our marriage, my husband comes home saying he wants to keep Yoshon....

amother

Orange

Tue, Apr 28 2015, 6:51 am

We keep it as well. My husband holds it is halacha so I dont' have a choice.
I have to say though that I find it much harder than cholov yisroel (which we keep too).
It seems like most people around here either keep CY or at least totally understand that many people do. Also it's much easier for other people (and myself) to figure out what is not CY. takes a second. just look at the wrapper of the food.

I find yoshon to be very complicated. Almost everything I need to buy in the grocery I have to first find out if it's ok. Well not everything but so much- cereals, crackers, pretzels, breads, oatmeal, cookies, gefilte fish (most have bread crumbs in it), soy sauce, etc.... Royal pain. Also I'm a very slow thinking and don't chap things quickly and I have a very difficult time understand the guide. I know it sounds wierd for those who use it a lot, but I really don't know what to do with all the dates and codes...it confuses me. I need my dh to tell me "ok the quaker oats has to have a date on it that is before SEptember 16." etc.. I can't figure that out myself.

Another thing is that my dh wants to keep it outside the house too, so makes it hard to eat anywhere so we basically don't. Except family but even then it's complicated. They want to accommodated but end up calling me with a hundred questions, or else there's something they didnt realize...

I am so impressed with hashem yaazor that she keeps it when it's not so easy and no one else is. And I'm busy complaining here in NYC. (but happens to be no one in my circles keeps it)

Bruria

Tue, Apr 28 2015, 7:04 am

Yes we keep yoshon. In the US it's very easy, most heimish brands will say kemach yoshon on their packages, so it's much easier than you think, plus the guide has so many products listed!

Hashem_Yaazor

Tue, Apr 28 2015, 8:01 am

Orange Amother: Gefilte fish has matzah meal, usually, not bread crumbs. Matzah is made from winter wheat. I've never seen gefilte fish with bread crumbs. Also, many people are fine eating the pretzels on the market (if they are not specialty like honey wheat).

Scrabble: Many people (though not the majority of the people here in the US Wink

) consider Yoshon to be halachically more problematic than Cholov Stam. Not as a chumra, and it's not up to us to know what is holier or not. Yoshon is a deoraisa, while Cholov Yisroel is a derabonnon to ensure nothing non-kosher was mixed into the milk.

Hashem_Yaazor

Tue, Apr 28 2015, 8:06 am

Keeping it in the house is not so hard if you are prepared. When I lived in Baltimore, the local Jewish supermarket had the guides hanging up, which made it easy, but when I moved OOT, I downloaded the guide to read on my phone or used wifi (I don't have data) or called my husband to check up things. It's really eating out that is the hardest.

OTOH, I know someone who found it so easy to keep yoshon in Lakewood because the store marked off sections/shelves/items saying it was yoshon but found it daunting in Baltimore! I guess it's a matter of what you are used to (Baltimore does mark certain items on the label on the shelf, like barley).

Scrabble123

Tue, Apr 28 2015, 8:22 am

HY there is a variety of machlokes involved in yashan: if it is deroisa or derabanon, if it is applicable at all in certain regions, to products that are not pas palter and totally non Jewish owned, etc. etc. So it's not really as simple as saying, "it's deroisa..." because there are other factors that take it into account. For example, bishul yisroel is a requirement but saying that a grilled tomato would need to be bishul yisroel would be ridiculous and not taking into consideration that items that may be eaten raw do not need to be bishul yisroel. Whatever, I'm not explaining myself well, but I hope you understand what I'm saying. Also, it is extremely easy to get yashon where I live and a lot a lot a lot of people do keep it. I was just wondering what the op meant when she used the word "higher" in her op.

Hashem_Yaazor

Tue, Apr 28 2015, 8:31 am

I was explaining the rationale behind those who consider it more important halachically.

(But it's not a machklokes whether the issur of chodosh is deoraisa --that's a given; the debate comes in application of contemporary times, especially in Chu"L.)

Hashem_Yaazor

Tue, Apr 28 2015, 8:35 am

I'm really curious what you mean by this: "to products that are not pas palter and totally non Jewish owned"?
I cannot figure out what you are saying.

Scrabble123

Tue, Apr 28 2015, 8:36 am

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

(But it's not a machklokes whether the issur of chodosh is deoraisa --that's a given; the debate comes in application of contemporary times, especially in Chu"L.)

I'm sorry, but you're misinformed. There is discussion between early halachic authorities of whether or not yashan out side of the boundaries of halachic eretz yisroel is a deroisa or derabanan.

Scrabble123

Tue, Apr 28 2015, 8:46 am

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

I'm really curious what you mean by this: "to products that are not pas palter and totally non Jewish owned"?
I cannot figure out what you are saying.

If it applies to wheat owned by a Non Jew when harvested (well products made with that grain). Some maintain that chadash is only applicable to wheat owned by a Jew at the time it was harvested. Sorry for the confusion.

Hashem_Yaazor

Tue, Apr 28 2015, 8:53 am

Scrabble123 wrote:

I'm sorry, but you're misinformed. There is discussion between early halachic authorities of whether or not yashan out side of the boundaries of halachic eretz yisroel is a deroisa or derabanan.

That is pretty much what I said. That it's a deoraisa in and of itself; the debate mainly has to do with Chu"L in contemporary times.