Whats your take on prison sentencing and serving?

Bitachon101

Sat, May 02 2015, 11:36 pm

Ami had a story this week with former NYPD police commissioner Kerik who ended up spending 3 humiliating years in prison for not reporting his nanny for payroll taxes and for a shady deal with a construction company where they did renovations for cheap so he could get them a license they were having a hard time seeking as they were involved in some no good activity.
A crime he did nonetheless and he admitted it immediately when charged, but his current mission is to show America how the legal and judicial system have so many issues in their way of dealing with crimes and imprisonment.
For a few months he landed in solitary confinement neighbored with a Somali terrorist and Afghan terrorist.
He agrees that he and anyone who breaks the law deserves penalty but there needs to be a differentiation between what we do with cold blooded murderers and ppl that are greedy or trying to save a buck illegally. Fine them, take privileges from them, etc, but throw them behind bars with ruthless murderers.... This is ridiculous and instead of reforming them it just sucks the life out of them.

It got me thinking.
I have to agree with him.
Yes, if someone breaks the law as a white collar crime, fine the pants off of him and make him repent. But why do we just throw them into cells to rot instead of teaching them how to live properly all the while sucking extra tax dollars from us. I'm not talking abt dangers to society. I'm talking abt bad stupid ppl that wanted to save paying taxes. Or the fisherman that was in the commissioners cell that was jailed for catching too many fish ( apparently there are laws abt how many fish you can catch... Go figure)

Am I the only that thinks our judicial and penal system are terrible and that there needs to be a change not only for fairness of crime to punishment but also to save tax dollars??

Just my thoughts.

youngishbear

Sun, May 03 2015, 12:01 am

causemommysaid wrote:

what about for the people on the outside? Keeping murderers locked up is a good thing no?

But they get out, eventually. At least a percentage does.

Is there mandatory therapy or some sort of rehabilitation going on in there? It seems to be an absurd waste of taxpayers money to pay for room and board for MILLIONS, who are then released, many to commit crimes again. So what, are we simply buying time by locking them up?

youngishbear

Sun, May 03 2015, 12:03 am

sequoia wrote:

As far as I know most white collar criminals end up in Club Fed where they read and work out all day. Someone I know, a familiar figure on the Brooklyn Russian Jewish scene, is currently serving a sentence and appears to be enjoying himself. And he hurt actual people, with a debt consolidation fraud scheme.

That seems unfair.

But fraud is still not murder.

Bitachon101

Sun, May 03 2015, 12:06 am

Keeping dangers to society and ppl that have done real hard crimes locked up, yes. Even so having them contribute to society from their cells would be better than wasting years of their life on this earth. Teach them how to be good adults, give them therapy give them the tools to handle living not as a criminal if they don't have life sentences and will be out after some time.
But keeping ppl that were greedy locked up, what a shame and waste. Rather fine them in a way that hurts to penalize their greed and teach them how to live properly. Even if giving them some type of serving for their white crime, do something where they can productively contribute to society especially in society where they erred like if its money make them do service for ppl that don't have money etc.

To answer the minimal security prison comment, they do have that and the commissioner was mostly there although moved for three months to max security and solitary confinement.

Not to bring up sore topic but think abt Rubashkin serving thirty some years for bank fraud or whatever they convicted him of.
The man has so much he could be doing to help society instead of sitting in a rotting cell. He is a human, whether he erred or not I have no clue but he in no way caused harm to any human beings and danger to society.... So why waste a humans life behind bars??? Why not deal with it in a way that makes him give back to society (as if he even owes but at least that would be a fair punishment for said crime...)

It just angers me how human life has so much disregard and worthless and instead of turning these ppl into ppl that could learn from mistakes while bettering this world they just sit and breathe their life away behind bars.
Cmon America!

mommy3b2c

Sun, May 03 2015, 12:07 am

sequoia wrote:

Prison is really hard. Even the minimum security prisons. Even if they get to play sports. There is no privacy. They are away from their families. There are endless rules. It is humiliating. I know people who were in min security and it was awful.

In addition, plenty of white collar do end up in maximum security. I believe shalom rubashkin is in one. Whatever, he did wrong, he does not deserve to be there.

yenny

Sun, May 03 2015, 12:08 am

causemommysaid wrote:

what about for the people on the outside? Keeping murderers locked up is a good thing no?

According to the Torah, they get killed so really if it's not done the Torah way (which obviously can't in modern times)we are in trouble.
Think of abusers how many came out healed ?they are a real threat as long as they are alive.
I think a murderer has a slight less chance of repeated murder, but abuse, there is no cure and that is the worst part.

amother

Cyan

Sun, May 03 2015, 12:15 am

DH has a friend who plead guilty for an ugly crime that though he maintained his innocence, he said he had little chance of winning and going to trial to be "found"guilty would've landed him a sentence significantly longer. Part of his plea--since criminals for this type of offense aren't treated well in prison, was that he got some special attention and he had "body guards" and a solitary cell to avoid contact with tried and convicted felons.

Most people in jail for murder are people who had it in for the person/people they killed, not serial murderers. Those are rare. There is place in jail for people who would continue to do their crimes--rapists. thieves, but agreed that therapy and rehab should be part of the sentence, b/c the time is served, now what?

amother

Violet

Sun, May 03 2015, 12:31 am

yenny wrote:

You need to read up a little more on the Torah way. Yes, there was a death penalty, but it was VERY rarely carried out. Once in 70 years was considered too often. If conditions were not met exactly, the best they could do was send him to an Ir Miklat. Which was good for his hometown, not so much for his new neighborhood.

FranticFrummie

Sun, May 03 2015, 12:54 am

amother wrote:

There is place in jail for people who would continue to do their crimes--rapists. thieves, but agreed that therapy and rehab should be part of the sentence, b/c the time is served, now what?

I agree. There is a lot of emphasis on punishment and keeping people out of the general public, and I think that's good - however - there's little to no thought given to reform and reducing the recidivism rates, and that's where the system fails people.

Too many people go in for petty crimes, and come out hardened criminals, born again jihadists, etc. It's just repeating the cycle over and over again.

The Torah puts emphasis on teshuvah a lot more than it does on the death penalty.

33055

Sun, May 03 2015, 4:13 am

I was reading about the extreme proliferation the criminalization of behaviors that were previously acceptable like the man in jail for catching too many fish. There are people going to jail these days for behaviors they not not have known were a crime.

Lawmakers eager to look tough will pass legislation without realizing what he consequences will be in the hands of prosecutors eager to also look tough.

imasoftov

Sun, May 03 2015, 6:19 am

Why yes, who gives a flying expletive about the minorities locked up for offenses that white people don't. It's even possible that the reason some drugs are outlawed is that they were popular among the wrong sorts of people, and that includes Prohibition in the US, which eventually was abandoned because you can't lock up that many white people. But it's not just drugs, when white sports fans riot after their team wins the same thing happens. Aside: At least I get rioting over murder-by-cop. I could even understand (but still not excuse) the losers rioting if they thought their team would have won if not for a disputed call. But rioting because your team won?

But a "respectable citizen" going to jail? Horrors!

DrMom

Sun, May 03 2015, 6:22 am

imasoftov wrote:

The point is that violent criminals shouldn't be locked up with non-violent ones.
Not that white criminals shouldn't be locked up with black ones.