Spinoff-White collar crime vs violent crime

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MagentaYenta

Sun, May 03 2015, 11:50 am

White collar crime are those crimes involving money or property that are nonviolent. Embezzlement, undeclared income, illegal housing, welfare fraud, substandard building practices, employers paying under the table etc.

Do you personally support white collar crime by renting an illegal basement apt? Using an unlicensed camp or day care provider? Getting paid under the table? Receiving undeclared financial support while dipping into public dependency programs?

This would work better with a poll but unfortunately I'm not up to the challenge this morning.

sequoia

Sun, May 03 2015, 11:56 am

Everyone rents out their basement calmly. They know no one will come after them.

Maya

Sun, May 03 2015, 12:00 pm

No.

But I can understand the desperation of those whom you call "supporters" of such crimes.

MagentaYenta

Sun, May 03 2015, 12:30 pm

Maya wrote:

No.

But I can understand the desperation of those whom you call "supporters" of such crimes.

Help me understand their desperation then. Clearly it was sometimes struggle for me to pay for childcare expenses when I had them. And undeclared income, well I'm a senior with a HUD voucher and I agreed to the rules, so if a cousin sends me a check for my birthday I report it.

Tova

Sun, May 03 2015, 12:33 pm

Huh? Are you in the US? Gifts are not taxable as income to the recipient.

(Oh, unless you meant on your HUD application? I just chapped....)

Last edited by Tova on Sun, May 03 2015, 12:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

Maya

Sun, May 03 2015, 12:33 pm

Sometimes, the only thing people can afford is to rent illegal basements and pay the lower costs of illegal child care. That would make them desperate.

I wouldn't put it in the same category as those who can live lavish lifestyles because they don't report income while receiving government aid.

MagentaYenta

Sun, May 03 2015, 12:35 pm

Tova wrote:

Huh? Are you in the US? Gifts are not taxable as income to the recipient.

Yes I am in the US, and I'm on a HUD voucher. When I signed on, I agreed to report all monies (even gifts) received in excess of my monthly declared income.

ora_43

Sun, May 03 2015, 12:49 pm

Most of those things aren't white collar crime, they're low-level financial crimes. White collar crime is more professional.

ora_43

Sun, May 03 2015, 1:06 pm

I think it's usually less "desperation" and more "don't see why it would be a big deal, anyway." That and bureaucracy can be insane for tiny tiny things.

I'll admit it, I sometimes do things that are technically illegal if the legal route is absurdly complicated. Like how I jaywalk every day, going from one side of a small dead-end road to the other, when the "legal" path would take 4-5 minutes. Similarly, if my babysitter can watch my kid during a school holiday when all other daycares are closed, I'm going to accept her offer, pay cash, and satisfy my conscience with the knowledge that even if she doesn't report that income the government is coming out ahead (thanks to the taxes I'll be paying on income I couldn't have otherwise earned).

amother

Turquoise

Sun, May 03 2015, 1:16 pm

I don't support any of the above.
But doesn't white collar crime also include those who stole from people, not just the government? Such as the facebook ipo scam, or Ponzi schemes? Imo, it's much worse to steal from people than from the gov't

Amarante

Sun, May 03 2015, 1:27 pm

amother wrote:

White collar crime generally means all forms of economic crimes which are non-violent - fraud against the government as well as private people.

Regarding the original question, I think one starts going down a slippery moral slope if one starts justifying criminal activity by claiming that one "needs" to do it to economically survive. Doesn't that justify stealing food if it is from a large supermarket chain? Where would one draw the line.

I agree that there are some crimes like jaywalking or going a moderate amount above the speed limit that most people commit.

Some crimes like renting your basement or running an unlicensed day care are pretty risky even if one can justify it as being okay. On a certain level, housing is zoned a certain way because people want to live in a neighborhood with a certain density so the neighborhood changes when more people are squeezed into it. But also, there is a reason why basements are illegal to rent - they are potentially dangerous in a fire because there is no safe exit route. At least the ones I am thinking about in Brooklyn have windows you can't escape from and only one door.

I am not sure what the line is between unlicensed day care and using a neighborhood baby sitter. However, as a parent I would not feel comfortable using an unlicensed facility because I would have no assurance that minimum standards were kept in terms of personnel, facilities, training, safety etc.

sequoia

Sun, May 03 2015, 1:32 pm

My rule is: if it's one-on-one services, it's okay to pay/be paid in cash. Cleaning ladies, babysitters, tutors, and speech therapists get paid in cash generally. Opening up an entire school/day care illegally? Not ok.

ora_43

Sun, May 03 2015, 2:02 pm

Amarante wrote:

White collar crime generally means all forms of economic crimes which are non-violent - fraud against the government as well as private people.

White collar generally refers to the profession of the criminal, not just the type of crime. An accountant who helps a CEO file false financial reports is a white collar criminal. A woman earning 4,000 shekels a month running an illegal daycare isn't a white collar criminal, she's just a person breaking the law.

shoshanim999

Sun, May 03 2015, 2:16 pm

Your lumping "white collar crimes" in an inclusive group that frankly includes way to many categories. When I tip my daughters morah $25 for purim I'm certain she doesn't report it, (and neither does ANY rebbe or morah) When I pay my plumber in cash so he doesn't charge me tax, I don't feel these are "white collar crimes". Same is true if I find a $10 bill in the street and I don't report it on my tax return. I'm not sure exactly where the bar is, but these things r accepted and not a crime at all as far as I'm concerned.

naturalmom5

Sun, May 03 2015, 2:32 pm

You'll excuse my cynicism but I am not impressed by all the "I report every last used tissue and never take a penny" goody goodies
Because 95% of the time they grew up in affluent families had excellent educations or were set up in business
When I meet someone who grew up in a very yeshivish family with no $ an inferior education and a very large family that made it without ever doing the slightest questionable thing well talk
I am ABSOLUTELY not condoning the system or community as a whole but I have compassion and understanding for the individual

MagentaYenta

Sun, May 03 2015, 2:44 pm

I apologize to all the posters on this thread for being so unclear. My intent, upon starting this conversation, was to encourage input regardless of the position. It was a way for me to gain understanding of the wide variety of positions frum women may take on the subject at hand. I merely wished to view the diversity of frum women's POVs on the subject.

shoshanim999

Sun, May 03 2015, 4:44 pm

And MagentaYenta, some of us might be interested in understanding your views. Do you believe that someone who rents there basement illegally is a white collar criminal? What about a handyman who works in peoples houses and gets most of his money in cash. If he doesn't report every dollar, is he a white collar criminal?

MagentaYenta

Sun, May 03 2015, 4:49 pm

[quote="shoshanim999"]And MagentaYenta, some of us might be interested in understanding your views. Do you believe that someone who rents there basement illegally is a white collar criminal? What about a handyman who works in peoples houses and gets most of his money in cash. If he doesn't report every dollar, is he a white collar criminal?[/quote

Yes I do see it as white collar crime, but a bit minor when compared to the Madoffs or those that loot charities and pensions. Those individuals are expecting others to shoulder their share of taxes while they evade their own responsibility. I'm a tax and spend liberal so I'm not in denial of benefits or dependency care. For instance an unlicensed preschool evades costly regulation, to increase their earnings. There is no high ground in their behavior which may put children in their care at risk.

causemommysaid

Sun, May 03 2015, 9:52 pm

This is going to become an "I'm so holy I report my toenails" thread.

Have fun ladies. (btw look up the definition of white collar crime. Not reporting the $25 birthday check doesn't cut it. Rolling Eyes

)

MagentaYenta

Sun, May 03 2015, 9:54 pm

causemommysaid wrote:

)

You don't know too much about HUD and HUD contracts do you?

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