Career choice help!

amother

Copper

Thu, May 07 2015, 11:23 pm

OK so Working Women is not exactly the right forum for this but as I want to post anonymously and there is no forum for "not-yet-working men" here it goes. We have been trying so hard for years already to find a career for DH that will be a good fit for skills/interests/personality but also viable financially and practically, and we keep going around in circles with no good answer.

History: has a bachelor's degree in biology and some decent lab experience.
Interests: Biology. Really. TOTALLY not interested in anything mathy or computer science. Loves plants, also likes cells and bacteria and stuff like that, animals and medicine also not bad but not quite as interesting as the aforementioned. Not a fan of chemistry, did well in chemistry classes but disliked it, less well in biochem class.
Skills: Great thinker, logic, research. Not much of a people person, can get along when needed but definitely not suited for sales or management and not a big fan of having a bossy boss (I have tried to explain that these are just a fact of life for most people... but let's just say that the less bossing, the happier he will be)
Prefers practically-oriented research to theoretical. Very interested in doing research, but not very interested in doing the kind of research where you work on the same thing for 10 years and then either you find out you were wrong, or you find out you were right but it will be a zillion more steps before anything comes of it. (Like, let's say green tea doesn't cure cancer... boy am I proud of myself for figuring that out?)
Practical considerations: He is married with a family. We do not want an all-consuming career. We cannot afford too much expense and length of training.

So it seems to me that the ideal career for him would be working in biotech. But from some googling and asking around it doesn't look very promising - there are not enough jobs, the jobs there are pay very poorly, if you want to dedicate your life to it then you can do a very intense postdoc and then still make not very much but probably have a research job that might consume your life. This was super disappointing because the field of biotech seems to encompass all his top interests. It seems odd that it isn't such a career when there is so much it can do for the world. But it seems people don't invest in it much. Same problem with PhD in biology, microbiology, genetics, etc. Lots of time, little money. Very sad.

He is also considering medical school. Something in him wants to be a doctor. But my feeling is that he is more interested in studying medicine than actually practicing it. He is not much of a people person, can you be a doctor without being a people person? And the journey to get there is grueling and expensive. Even if we could get a scholarship it is still grueling. Plus, it would take at least another year or two before he could even find out if he's accepted because his original bio degree didn't include some prerequisites so he would have to take those, then take the MCATs, then apply, then wait for answers. So instead of being ready to work in a couple of years with something else, he would be just STARTING a long, grueling journey then. (meanwhile, we're on food stamps and tuition reduction and not living very happily that way, regardless of whatever the stereotype is about that) and that's only IF he gets accepted. If he's not accepted, that's a year or more down the drain without anything to show for it. Sobering.

So I thought the next step from doctor was PA. You do most of the same stuff, and the schooling is much shorter and easier to get into. But he does not want to be a PA. They don't even get to touch research. Not very prestigious (yes I know but our therapist said not to knock how important this is for a man... never mind that all the PA's I know are men who seem quite satisfied with themselves) Not the same challenge/stimulation as being in the doctor role with more decision-making and stuff going on. Or something like this. So no. Similarly uninterested in nursing or anything else like that. Dead end.

Pharmacist is too chemistryish. Hates that idea. Plus, lots more school to get there. And not the type of school that comes with any stipend to help with living like PhDs get.

HELLLLLP I am out of ideas! I thought biotech was such a great idea but everyone seems to be saying it is nice but it isn't a job! This is so frustrating, we really need movement now! He is not going to be able to get much of a job with his BS in biology, if he can even get anything at all it will be a very menial level of lab work where he will be pretty unhappy and get paid very little (slightly more than the manicurists I guess...)

This is so frustrating! Have not found a career counselor who could help. They tell him his ideas are unrealistic (medical school unlikely to get in, biotech unlikely to get job...) and then make suggestions that he dislikes (PA, for example)

SMART PEOPLE! SAY SOMETHING! SAVE ME from this purgatory of not knowing what on earth you want to do with your life when you're already in middle of it! I can't even describe how stressful and never ending this is! Help

amother

Seafoam

Thu, May 07 2015, 11:47 pm

I don't get why biotech isn't a career option. My DH is a biomedical engineer which I believe is a subset of biotech. (I know your DH is more into the bio and not engineering...there are still plenty of subfields!) My DH got a job no problem with a Masters. He got a stipend while he got his Masters and didn't have to pay for tuition. Top university. 2 year program.

He's since gotten an MBA because to really advamce in terms of earnings and positions, you often need a PhD or MBA. He does a lot more project management type stuff now. Hopefully will become head of R &D. Those kinds of positions do require people interaction though...both within company and often external.

Besides the big company executives, the marketing/saless people make the big bucks. I doubt even the "senior scientists" are going to make money like Drs, but they do fine. the big bucks aren't going to people doing the lab work. If that's all your husband wants to do...well, that will keep his earning potential lower.

I think he needs to try to speak with people in the field and see if there's a career counselor type of person who knows more about careers in science and medical reseach.

Biotech is definitely a career option worth researching and considering.

amother

Copper

Thu, May 07 2015, 11:59 pm

Thanks. Is there any way we could contact your husband? Where did he do his master's?

We looked into biomedical engineering, which indeed seems to be doing better as a field than biotech, which I was surprised to find were not the same things, but the bioengineering seemed to be more about the equipment than the bio. That turned DH off. He is NOT into computers and machinery. Biomedical engineering/bioengineering seemed to be a LOT about computers and machinery, whereas biotech (they are 2 different master's programs) is more of what I expected bioengineering to be - playing with cells or plants or bacteria or little critters and doing different things with them, which is interesting to DH but apparently not easy or lucrative to get jobs in.

Yes when looking into biotech we heard the same as you're saying, that the marketing/sales people are the ones with jobs and if you want to do well you get an MBA on the side. So I am very worried about this because DH is very much NOT a people person and I don't think his skills are managementy at all (put it this way, I have to do the lion's share of household management even though we're both equally busy. Maybe a master's degree would teach him how to be better at this?) So the sales/business/management end is probably not for him. He would definitely rather be a senior scientist than a lab worker, though, that is exactly what he's aiming for I think. How does one get to be a senior scientist? Do you need to do the lower level, lower pay lab work a lot first? Or can you get a PhD and go right in? And from what I heard even with a PhD there are not many jobs available, and they aren't great anyway.

Would be very interested in a good, field-specific career counselor but have not a clue where to find one. Asked all around. No help. Sad

Would love to hear more optimism about biotech, but so far it doesn't seem to be. Everyone we talked to is either naysaying or doing the sales/marketing end. I just can't see DH getting a managerial makeover.

amother

Copper

Fri, May 08 2015, 12:04 am

BTW I am not looking for "big bucks" just enough to support a family and be respectable. He's not going for an intense science master's degree so he can get $30k a year measuring pipettes or whatever. Regarding "making money like doctors" well one of the reasons medical school is not the most appealing option (besides what I already said) is that they aren't raking it in anymore either. They graduate with maybe a lifetime worth of debt and get shortchanged by insurance policies and I don't even know what else is going on but all I hear is that medicine isn't what it used to be. He was thinking of going to medical school in Israel (it's less expensive there and we want to move there eventually anyway) but we were talking to someone in Israel for advice, this person runs their local money gemach and said doctors come to him needing tzedakah, he said they are totally not making big bucks. I don't know exactly how accurate this is or what other factors are playing in but it's no longer taken for granted that if you become a doctor you've made it.

DH still would like to give it a go, but the question is if it's worth spending a year on prerequisites and then another half a year on MCAT and applications and maybe not getting in, so that by the end of 2 years he could be nowhere but out a lot of stress and time, whereas in biotech in 2 years he could have a master's degree but might be scrounging for a pitiful job.

amother

Seafoam

Fri, May 08 2015, 12:21 am

My DH happened to have always worked on more bio type things as opposed to hardware. For example human tissue stuff and cartilage regeneration. I realize most med engineering jobs are more hardware stuff So I guess my DH isn't so typical of the field. His Masters was from MIT.

Oh I know about Drs not earning the big bucks anymore but their earnings still outstrip any lab worker.

I don't really know the exact trajectory of a career path in this field. I think senior scientist is just a typical title for a researcher after x number of years working In the field. Obviously every company will have different job titles but senior scientist is a common one.

There's academia. Earnings are respectible but really need to get tenure to be able to persue any and all interests freely. There is the teaching part of course which is human interaction but aren't most professors valued for their research more than for their teaching skills LOL! A phd takes a long time but at least no school debt (assuming one gets a stipend?) At least in research universities, professors who publish a lot are highey valued. tenure can be tricky though. A lot of politics and if they don't vote to give you tenure, you're toast.

amother

Copper

Fri, May 08 2015, 12:22 am

He is not interested in PT. He is more interested in other aspects of medicine, such as surgery or other less hands-on (well, hands-on is the wrong word, but less direct people interaction) types like radiology, pathology, etc. He is also interested in the possibility of being involved in research while also having an active career - my understanding is that most MDs don't get to do a whole lot of research, but apparently there is room for that, and I said well if research is what you're after then stick with the PhD but that doesn't seem to be much of a career, so he said at least if you're an MD you have a career even if your research doesn't work out. That still seems like kind of backward reasoning to me but for now we've put a hold on arguing that out because MD doesn't seem so practical anyway due to the hoops you need to jump through to get there. I hear it's very competitive and even with scholarships you probably have to sell a few organs and possibly your children to fund it.

amother

Copper

Fri, May 08 2015, 12:51 am

He does want to be a doctor, the "at least I'll have a career" is his response to me saying "Why don't you do PhD instead, it's easier to get into, THEY pay YOU (ok a pittance maybe but a big difference from paying $100,000 for four years), and you get to do that research you like." But yeah the not 22 anymore part is my argument. And then that makes him feel bad so that's no good. Sigh. The "rigorous crazy years" is a big turnoff for me. For him maybe he can get through it, but I'll be the one home without a husband all that time...picking up the pieces... while working my neck off to keep the debt down... thanks no thanks.

Yeah well what's a "Scientist III" and how many people get to be one, even if you get the PhD and experience who says you get hired? And is the experience postdoc university work? because I hear that stinks in both pay and work. If you know a "Scientist III" please do share I would LOVE to be in touch with them and hear what it's like and how to follow! I have not yet found any Scientist IIIs. All I have found to talk to are biologists who aren't making money, biologists who switched to marketing, and biologists who work for boring universities and probably aren't making much either. One biologist who is content doing some redundant-sounding gene sequencing job that has you behind a computer all day and I forgot whether his salary is worth anything. A few happy chemists because I said "bioengineering, chemical engineering, whatever at least talk to each other!" but happy as they are they did not inspire DH to stop disliking chemistry.

But I guess salary.com is not that discouraging... I'm gonna go over there and look up "scientist I" and "scientist II" because I'll be gray and feeble by the time we hit "scientist 3" - figure 5 years for the PhD plus 6 years of experience ok maybe not THAT gray but probably sick and tired of the whole journey. Oh wait, no that's what I am NOW.

amother

Copper

Fri, May 08 2015, 12:57 am

amother wrote:

He is not interested in the academia/tenure route. What your DH does is MUCH more like it. Is there any way we can get in touch?!

ally

Fri, May 08 2015, 1:16 am

amother wrote:

I would not recommend the american med school programs in Israel if you are planning to live here. It will be very difficult to pay off your student debt and I think there are less career opportunities than graduates from Israeli programs.

amother

Hotpink

Fri, May 08 2015, 2:07 am

Your DH sounds kind if like me. I'm fascinated by biology, but I don't have a head for math. I had my heart set on med school since I was in high school. I spent years worth of summers working for doctors and interning in labs and many, many hours of my life in college helping in a local ER. I had difficulties with college level physics and organic chemistry, but I managed to get a decent MCAT score because I did really well on the bio and verbal sections. Even with great experience and decent scores, I was accepted to only one medical school. I put in 2 years of hard work, but I just couldn't cut it. I couldn't pass certain courses (like cardio) because my math/physics was not up to par. I really regret all the time and money I wasted. I would have been better off becoming a PA or genetic counselor or something else.

I have a relative who is just finishing his residency now. He's in his thirties and has no life. He works crazy hours and sleeps the rest of the time. He barely has time to eat, let alone spend time with family. He misses pretty much all occasions unless he happens to be off. And he can barely afford to pay his rent because he's making a pittance. He's about to start a 3 year fellowship. Eventually, after 4 years of college, 4 years of med school, 1 year of internship, 2 years of residency, and 3 years of fellowship, he'll finally be able to get a starter job in his chosen specialty. That is a long haul.

Your husband needs a reality check. He can't make big bucks without putting in the time. He can't get a prestigious job without working his way up from below. But you need to pay the bills now, so he needs to figure out how to make that work.

Anon because of personal details.

amother

Lime

Fri, May 08 2015, 7:01 am

I don't get why a PhD is not an option for him. First off, the salary is not 30K, the starting salary for a post-doc is 42800. In industry, the starting figure is more 60K. NIH starts 42800 like academia, but, there is great upward mobility to staff scientist which means your job is very secure. Government work means good benefits even if the salary is low. Schooling in about 29K stipend. (The 29K has supported my family with 1 child for five years.)

The reason I am doing this is not the income, I simply cannot do anything else. This is who Hashem made me. I am not a big earner. I am not a people person. I like taking theory and making it practical like your dh. Yah, the grant thing is hard, but, its doable.

Second, even though I started at 22, people in my class were 40. There are people in my program from 22 to 44. The average age is 30-32. I was a younger one. There are many p7-10eople with children in my program. Throughout my years, about 7-10 kids were born to students.

amother

Pewter

Fri, May 08 2015, 7:24 am

I can't talk specifics as I know nothing about these fields, but someone has to explain to your husband that it is completely unrealistic to expect to make good money without putting up with a few years of low pay. Even doctors (who, as you noted, don't even really make as much as they used to) spend several years of very low paid training (50k that residents make may sound ok, until you relize residents are working 100 hours a week, so its essentially like $10/hour).
Also, even when you work in a field you love, there are going to be aspects of the job that you hate and that are dull and take away from the parts of the job that you enjoy. Again, he's going to have to understand that whatever he ends up with is going to have that and he can't just nix those ideas because of it.
DH needs to think about his priorities here. Is it more important to make as much money as quickly as possible (which still won't be all that quick) even if he doesn't like it that much? Or is it more important to generally like the job (while understanding there are still some unfun parts) but it will take a decade to really climb up the ladder? I don't think one is more right than the other, but these questions are true for any career path. Very, very few people manage to avoid making such decisions by landing the job that has it all. Most of us have to decide what we'd rather have in a job and what we can manage without. Your husband is going to have to make this decision too.