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Is Anyone Talking About This? Violence At the Kotel?



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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 13 2015, 1:45 am
Apparently a male supporter of Women of the Wall was stomped on and badly injured recently? Anyone talking about this? Who would do such a thing? Why? What are you thinking?

http://www.jta.org/2015/05/10/.....kotel
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Happydance




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 13 2015, 2:23 am
This supporter did a good job defending himself, saying "I wrapped my arms around him and used my body as deadweight to bring him to the ground." And look in the picture- it seems that even after the person got away from his grip, the supporter grabbed onto his leg to hold him back. A good shake of his leg to get this man off of him could have been translated as "stomped on my stomach." As much as I think any violence at the Kotel or anywhere is wrong, it seems as if Magiya Lo.

How did the supported know that this man was going to be violent on the womens side, or was the supporter just afraid that he would get the Torah away form the women?

Also, he makes it seem as if the women just happened to take the Torah, and he had no part in it. If you watch a video from the event, you clearly see the men handing the Torah over to the Women as they approach.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 13 2015, 2:54 am
When the stomp took place, the grabber was on the ground, the stomper was already free of him.
http://forward.com/opinion/isr.....otel/

"magia lo" (for those who don't speak Hebrew, it means "he deserved it") might be part of the Law of the Playground but when it comes to assault, if someone is down, you stop hitting.
http://boingboing.net/2012/04/......html

Also, it was a different man who passed the Torah to the woman, and he was grabbed by the neck and thrown to the ground by a Kotel employee.
http://www.jpost.com/Israel-Ne.....98825
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lucymaud




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 13 2015, 2:59 am
Obviously a man passed the Torah to the women. But nothing justifies the violence associated with this sort of thing. It's sinat chinam and a disgrace to the holiness of the Kotel.
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Happydance




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 13 2015, 3:09 am
Was the stomper free? I do not see anything in the links you posted that indicate that? In the original article, it sure looks like the supporter is still trying to grab onto the stomper...

and Mr supporter threw himself to the ground... we wouldn't want to make it seem as if the stomper threw him to the ground and then stomped on him .... stomper was just tackled to the ground...
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 13 2015, 3:38 am
I thought this was a banned topic? I know Charlie and his wife and I have lots to say about this - but not here. And no, the story did not generate much media interest. It's not a topic that most Israelis really care about.
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Happydance




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 13 2015, 3:40 am
banned? really? lol who banned it? why?
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 13 2015, 3:46 am
rlm wrote:
Was the stomper free? I do not see anything in the links you posted that indicate that? In the original article, it sure looks like the supporter is still trying to grab onto the stomper...

and Mr supporter threw himself to the ground... we wouldn't want to make it seem as if the stomper threw him to the ground and then stomped on him .... stomper was just tackled to the ground...

"I took the head piece [of his tefillin] in my left hand, breaking my grip on the man, who jumped up and stomped on my stomach."
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achot613




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 13 2015, 4:07 am
These women have been known to say and write many "untruths" so I would not believe anything they wrote here.
In any case, All violence is terrible and especially at the kotel.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 13 2015, 4:10 am
achot613 wrote:
These women have been known to say and write many "untruths" so I would not believe anything they wrote here.
In any case, All violence is terrible and especially at the kotel.

The articles I linked to have accounts told by men. It would be interesting to read how the stomper and the choker think it went down, but if they gave their side of the story (or even their names), I haven't come across it.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 13 2015, 4:20 am
rlm wrote:
banned? really? lol who banned it? why?

I'm going to collect locked threads about Women of the Wall here. In case this thread gets locked after someone accuses me of being in favor of censorship but before I get a chance to reply, let me save you the trouble and say I am not, and if you want to argue with the policy, talk to Yael, not me.

Women of the wall what do you think
Women of the wall
Women of the wall in the news again
Should I join WOW at the kotel? Yael said there "I am fully intending to stifle all discussions about WOW from now on."

And in a related (and locked) thread, Orthodox congregation gives women aliyas, Yael wrote
Quote:
It would be best to stop this conversation now.
According to most orthodox rabbanim, giving women aliyos cannot be done in a way that conforms to Halacha. Very few agree that this is halachicly acceptable to orthodox standards.
This practice falls in the realm of the extreme left, even according to MO. I will not allow extreme left views to be promoted on imamother.


OK, I've made it back to 2013 and threads about WOW from then are not locked but I'm sure that can be changed if anyone bumps them, but here's one that was locked.

REVISED Is what WoW are doing Halachically assur?


Last edited by imasoftov on Wed, May 13 2015, 4:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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Tablepoetry




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 13 2015, 4:36 am
achot613 wrote:
These women have been known to say and write many "untruths" so I would not believe anything they wrote here.
In any case, All violence is terrible and especially at the kotel.


I would certainly believe them far more than any extremist men that break through to the women's side to grab back the Torah (or to throw chairs or diapers).
But as etky said, no one really cares here in Israel. It's not an issue and didnt make the papers at all. Pity, I davka think it should be discussed. But I guess the paper has enough corruption stories these days to fill their pages (from the lawyer saga to Rav Pinto).
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 13 2015, 4:49 am
Tablepoetry wrote:
I would certainly believe them far more than any extremist men that break through to the women's side to grab back the Torah (or to throw chairs or diapers).
But as etky said, no one really cares here in Israel. It's not an issue and didnt make the papers at all. Pity, I davka think it should be discussed. But I guess the paper has enough corruption stories these days to fill their pages (from the lawyer saga to Rav Pinto).

It was in Haaretz, The Jerusalem Post, The Times of Israel, and Arutz Sheva (both their free Friday newspaper and their website). I didn't happen to pick up a copy of Yisrael Hayom or Yediot Achronot the next day so I don't know if they covered the story, and I don't remember if it was on the radio. I don't watch TV news (not because I have anything against it, just because reading is faster) so I don't know if it was there.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 13 2015, 4:55 am
I'm not sure what really happened here, or whom to believe.

BTW, what was a man doing on the women's side of the mechitzah?
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 13 2015, 5:15 am
DrMom wrote:
BTW, what was a man doing on the women's side of the mechitzah?

At 1:50 in the video, yelling at the woman that he donated the Torah and wanted it back.

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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 13 2015, 6:21 am
imasoftov wrote:
It was in Haaretz, The Jerusalem Post, The Times of Israel, and Arutz Sheva (both their free Friday newspaper and their website). I didn't happen to pick up a copy of Yisrael Hayom or Yediot Achronot the next day so I don't know if they covered the story, and I don't remember if it was on the radio. I don't watch TV news (not because I have anything against it, just because reading is faster) so I don't know if it was there.


Yes, I saw it covered in the Jerusalem Post written edition. This is the type of story that receives prominence in the English language media outlets, some coverage in the religious papers and sites and briefer coverage in the mainstream Hebrew media. It's not a topic that usually generates much public debate - except when there is mass haredi mobilization against WOW as happened 2 summers ago.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 13 2015, 6:30 am
The secular Israeli media loves stories that make haredim and/or the religious establishment look bad or anything that smacks of religious coercion and intolerance. However WOW is not an issue that resonates with your average Israeli who can't identify with the womens' desire to read Torah at the wall. Many think WOW are just a bunch of wackos anyway even if they do think they should have the freedom to worship as they see fit. So unless there is some dramatic buildup to the story and lots of egregious haredi violence, the topic usually gets short shrift.
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Sanguine




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 13 2015, 7:27 am
etky wrote:
The secular Israeli media loves stories that make haredim and/or the religious establishment look bad or anything that smacks of religious coercion and intolerance. However WOW is not an issue that resonates with your average Israeli who can't identify with the womens' desire to read Torah at the wall. Many think WOW are just a bunch of wackos anyway even if they do think they should have the freedom to worship as they see fit. So unless there is some dramatic buildup to the story and lots of egregious haredi violence, the topic usually gets short shrift.
I don't think most Chilonim care at all what goes on at the Kotel. Human interest story - has no affect on their life. Even if they're traditional, a change at the kotal like this doesn't really affect them. For the few times in their lives that they go, they can live with it however it is.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 13 2015, 8:26 am
Prayin' at the Kotel
All the Torahs are for men
Fanatics blow their whistles
To preserve decorem

Maybe we should come on down
There's even a free bus
But school it starts real early
And folks might just spit at us

And I'm sure
It wouldn't interest anybody
Outside of a small circle of friends

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