Help me with a stubborn 9 yr old who refuses to go to sleep

amother

Lawngreen

Wed, May 13 2015, 8:46 pm

Help me please,
This is a middle child, she has her own room with her sister she insists her room is creapy and she can't fall asleep in there. She starts around her bed time where should I sleep? I say go to your room. She starts this shtick she wants to sleep in her older sisters room.
Her older sister knows that since sheis starting a shtick she refuses to let her in.
Some nights I am not in the mood of it so I tell her sleep on the floor in my room.
Which is ridiculous because she is too old and that is not good for Shalom bayis. So on the nights like tonight when we won't let her sleep In our bedroom and her older sister won't let her in.
she totally gets out of control screaming and crying like a real baby for hours.
My husband does not know how to handle her. He threatens me he is going to leave.
She is supposed to be sleeping by 8:30 9 the latest, she will terrorize and yell and scream till she collapses at 11 or 10:30. The next morning she is a total mess from lack of sleep.
My question is, is she justified for not wanting to sleep in her room because she is afraid? Should we not force her to sleep in there?
Should I punish her in the morning for acting out like that?
any advice appreciated, im worn out from this
Amother

oliveoil

Wed, May 13 2015, 9:39 pm

Lots of kids are scared unless they're sleeping with someone older - a parent or older sibling. I don't think you should force her to stay in her room if that's scary for her. Change the sleeping arrangements so that she gets to sleep with the older sister.

salt

Wed, May 13 2015, 11:22 pm

I don't think it's fair to call it "stubborn" behavior - unless you really believe she is not scared of anything, and is just putting on a show. If she really is scared, you have to acknowledge that. Sometime very simple solutions can help.
If it's a given that she can't sleep with her older sister, say that to her - but that you want to try and think of a solution that will help her be less scared.
What is she scared of - maybe it's a certain creepy little corner in her room - you could decorate it.
Maybe it's bad dreams - reassure her that she can call you in the night if she needs you, or she can come to you, but she has to try starting out in her room. Maybe sit with her a bit, till she's almost asleep.
Maybe listening to music. A small lamp. A doll/soft teddy (9 is not too old for that).
How far away is your bedroom from hers - maybe set up a kind of intercom so that she can alert you easily if she wakes up in the night and is scared.
Maybe even offer her a prize in the morning if she goes to bed nicely. Sometimes they can really overcome these things easier if they are bribed.
Just some ideas off the top of my head.

cinnamon

Thu, May 14 2015, 2:52 am

Letting my kids (ages 3-8) sleep on the floor in various place around the house works for me on nights when they don't fall asleep in their own bed. (in our room, the living room, a sibling's room, the hallway) Sometimes all of them end up on the floor sometimes just one. Than we move them back to their bed when they are asleep.

amother

Ginger

Thu, May 14 2015, 3:32 am

Unless your kid is special needs, I wouldn't allow her to behave like that. That is ridiculous. Giving in to this is not good for her chinuch. It teaches her to control with this kind of behavior.

I have a special needs child who also could act up because of extreme fears and behavior issues. I do shema with him. I check anywhere he wants me to. I cover him up in a specific way and will kiss him goodnight. I also bought a projection nightlight and projection clock.

You need to get control away from your daughter and teach her that her behavior is unacceptable.

5*Mom

Thu, May 14 2015, 4:28 am

amother wrote:

My husband does not know how to handle her. He threatens me he is going to leave.

Your DH is threatening to leave you because your DD has sleep difficulties? Is this a frequent feature of your marriage? This seems extreme to me which makes me think that there may be shalom bayis issues irrespective of your DD's sleep issues. Marital tension can cause anxiety in children. So can many other things. Try looking at the bigger picture to see if you can identify a source for your DD's anxiety. I would reframe it as bona fide fear/anxiety, not just a "shtick" to make your life miserable or to control you, as someone else suggested, and I'd treat it with compassion and support.

amother

Floralwhite

Thu, May 14 2015, 4:34 am

Quote:

You need to get control away from your daughter and teach her that her behavior is unacceptable.

Why is it unacceptable to have a fear? It needs to be dealt with - she doesn't need to have all her behavior given in to, and to be allowed to control her parents, but her fears need to be addressed. You're pretty tough!

animeme

Thu, May 14 2015, 5:04 am

5*Mom wrote:

Marital tension can cause anxiety in children.

This is true,but so is the opposite- anxiety in children can cause marital tension. Maybe dd has been doing this for months and years and completely exhausting both parents both physically and mentally, so that they are more likely to snap. Maybe op let's Dd sleep on the floor in their room more often than DH would like, at the expense of both relations and general private time. Maybe DH feels like amother ginger and op does not and it's a big source of tension.

Likely, you'll need a combo of both approaches. Get some guidance on how to validate her anxiety and help her deal (there's some threads here that are good- see Frantic Frummie's posts, I think). Come up with a workable plan. (We use an under the pillow speaker and an iPod, for music or stories, and I stay with her for five minutes after she starts trying to fall asleep.) Then stick to it, which would help both DH and you because of the structure.

She is still old enough for chart-based rewards, though with this I would use them with a short duration like two days to start with.

amother

Ginger

Thu, May 14 2015, 5:13 am

amother wrote:

Quote:

You need to get control away from your daughter and teach her that her behavior is unacceptable.

It is acceptable to have a fear. It is not acceptable for a 9 year old to "terrorize" a family and destroy OP's SB. Her husband obviously can't handle the screaming for 3 1/2 hours each night. OP also also said her SB is threatened by her daughter sleeping in her room.

In addition, by OP giving in she is teaching her daughter to get her way with emotional outbursts. This isn't good for her daughter and unfair to the other girls.

This girls needs to be curtailed immediately. I wouldn't put up with that behavior and neither should OP's husband.

asp40

Thu, May 14 2015, 6:19 am

She needs to know what to expect. Some nights you allow her to sleep other places. And then the next night she isn't allowed. She needs it to be predictable. I agree with having her share a room, maybe on a trial basis. But no schtik allowed. After she has set rules for a while, you will know if she is truly afraid or just seeking attention.

I have one child who comes out of her room most night about 5-10 times to tell me something or complain or whatnot. I have learned for her that I need to acknowledge the issue, tell her that I hope she feels better, and tell her that it's time for bed. When I was getting into a power struggle and ignoring her, it was much worse. Now it is no big deal.

amother

Lawngreen

Thu, May 14 2015, 10:46 am

Thank you all for your replies. The sb is a result of her behavior not the other way around bh Very Happy

Another issue with husbands, they need to feel in control, and be able to handle the situation. In this case we both dont know what to do with her!

amother

Khaki

Thu, May 14 2015, 12:40 pm

OP you have my full sympathy. We had this too. Only it was a 4 year old and there was no reasoning with him. We were awake with him until 4am almost nightly. It was a total nightmare that lasted almost a year. Later on we officially allowed him to sleep in our room.

We tried many different techniques, remedies etc. and had some success using One Brain. I'm not sure exactly how it works but it gets rid of negative emotions via a method of kinesiology.

All in all it eventually disappeared. I can't know whether he simply outgrew it or if all our efforts were the answer. I shudder when I think of it. I was sure the neighbours would call CPS because of his nightly shouting sessions.

Definitely don't make her sleep in her room if she's afraid. Can you allow her to sleep in the hallway instead of in your room?

Try to remember that this too shall pass.

imasinger

Thu, May 14 2015, 12:47 pm

Two suggestions.

1. Can you or DH stay in there with her for a half an hour or so at bedtime? After she is over the hump, you can cut it down to a shorter time.

2. Melatonin. It's a beautiful thing. Natural sleep aid that can help her get into a better habit/frame of mind,and then, that, too, can be cut back as things improve.

amother

Lemon

Thu, May 14 2015, 12:57 pm

Please try to figure out if something is causing her anxiety- when I was her age I got a book as a gift that completely creeped me out. I hid it on some other bookshelf on the other side of the house because I couldn't sleep with it in my room.
Separate incident at about the same age- at some point my parents wanted to rearrange bedrooms and move me down to the basement since I was the oldest. I spent one night down there and couldn't do another because the sounds made by the furnace or the pipes or people walking around upstairs sounded like all sorts of scary things and creeped me out- I moved back to my old room and refused to sleep in the basement again.
My point is, kids her age still have magical thinking. An especially sensitive kid may have anxieties she's not telling you about, maybe nightmares (I had those too)- if all you do is invalidate her feelings, you'll never get anywhere. If you can't get a clear answer from her directly, maybe she should talk to a therapist who specializes in pediatric anxiety. This behavior really doesn't sound intentionally manipulative to me from your description.

amother

Lawngreen

Thu, May 14 2015, 9:13 pm

Now I'm remembering after reading all the posts.
Two things, one she started reading, she read kids speak and I think some of those stories may be a little scary?
Another important factor, she used to suck thumb, and the orthodontist put a habit braker to have her stop that.
Perhaps everything together can be causing it.

oliveoil

Fri, May 15 2015, 4:03 am

amother wrote:

Definitely could be. A lot of kids find those kids speak stories scary.

animeme

Fri, May 15 2015, 4:08 am

amother wrote:

Yes to both. Maybe pick out some specific bedtime books to put in a bin by her bed. And let her choose a cozy stuffed animal to hug for comfort.

chavs

Fri, May 15 2015, 4:20 am

A child who is scared Is not terrorising the home! She us scared and that's what's needs to be dealt with.
I find it shocking that so many women feel fearful when their husbands are away but as soon as a child expresses fear, they are unruly or terrorising.
Consistency is important so make a game plan and stick to it, whether it's that she sleeps in your room atm or get sisters or the hall way or that sometime sits with her until she's asleep.
Teach her meditation and other relaxation techniques and try to find out what's bothering her. You can also try to get her something that'll make her feel safe in her room (toy, lamp etc).
Make sure she doesn't have any screen time before bed and no scary books.

During the day and before bed time, I'd work on your attachment as well so she feels safe in you and trusts you completely. Often insecure attachment is at the root of fears.

Its unacceptable that you're husband is threatening to leave however. You are in this together and I'm gonna assume it's his daughter as well. You need to be in the same page with this. Try to cultivate some understanding together if how it feels to be little and scared. It helps greatly when we feel for our daughter* and understand how she feels.

*I'm a parent of a child with sleep issues as well.