50 members of family required to convert after 1960s convers

FranticFrummie

Fri, May 15 2015, 9:38 pm

Because of lost family records, I needed a gerus l'chumra. I went through an Eida Charedi beis din in Jerusalem, and then I found out a year later that the RCA in America wouldn't recognize it.

When I married DH, I had to dunk again in London, by the Sephardic Beis Din that is recognized by the RCA and the Rabbanut.

Submitting paperwork for Aliyah has been "interesting", to say the least.

*passes the popcorn*

rowo

Sat, May 16 2015, 7:14 am

This article is so disturbing. Honestly you don't nee to be all that technologically advanced to make a few phone calls. Which is all it would take to find out a few facts about the rav who did the conversion.
Even speaking to the rabbis who married the woman's children or other grandchildren to see what research they did.

To answer those who asked about how ppl prove their yiddishkeit, before marrying a couple most orthodox rabbis (I'm assuming its most bc the ones I know do this) will ask for copies of parents kesubos and or a gett. If there is no documentation like that more research is involved. With regards to ppl from the former Soviet Union there are experts who know where to look and what to look for, as people mentioned in cemeteries etc.
As a rabbi, my husband has come across quite a few interesting stories. He speaks to other rabbis that he knows and trusts and BH has been able to work things out.
But in other situations I do know of a few people that knew within their families that their mothers and grandmothers were jewish, but had no documentation and had to go through giyur.

Although it mainly comes up when someone wants to get married, there are schools that will ask on their enrollement form who the rabbi that married the child's parents was...

Sanguine

Sat, May 16 2015, 4:36 pm

A little OT but interesting. I live in an all Dati neighborhood. For the past 10 years my block has had a Sheur after Tfilla every Shabbat morning. We rotate houses on the block starting with a Kiddush and shmoozing at the house and then a 45 minute Sheur given by the Rabbi who lives on the corner. So overall, we're a close group on the block.

Our neighborhood is mostly American but our block also has Israeli's Indian, Russian, South African... So we all socialize. Well a few years ago we found out something interesting. There was one Russian couple on our block, part of our group, they'd been in Israel for years. Spoke Hebrew beautifully. Their kids were friends with our kids. Just like everyone else. Well, suddenly, them and a few other Russian couples in our Yishuv were going to have a wedding!!! It seems that in Russia they only had a civil marriage. And now realized that they really need a Jewish wedding!! I don't know if they're actually BT. They're certainly dati now, so I don't know why they didn't have a Jewish wedding. We thought maybe their daughter in 12th grade came home from school and mentioned learning about needing her parent's ketuva when she gets married... I don't know what got them all to get married suddenly. Maybe the Rav of the Yishuv went around collecting them all. Even the ones who aren't dati (the whole Yishuv isn't dati, just one neighborhood is) will need the ketuva when their kids want to get married. So I guess he had find out if all of them were actually Jewish.

Just an interesting story.

etky

Sat, May 16 2015, 5:35 pm

HindaRochel wrote:

The problem is not that the Rabbi in this case wasn't Orthodox, it was that they didn't recognize this Rabbi as being on their list.

An Orthodox conversion should be accepted, period.

If the person stopped being religious than the are a lapsed Jew. Would they have lived in the time of the Temple they'd be chiyuv as a Jew.

This is wrong for the nation, wrong for the Jewish people.

The Chief Rabbinate is becoming tyrannical.

This is why it was so tragic that Rav Stav lost the 2013 elections for the position of Chief Ashkenazi rabbi. We had an opportunity to revamp the rabbinate and to recast it as an institution that would finally address the burning issues that are a social and demographic time bomb for this country - as it courageously did in previous eras. But Bibi needed to compensate the haredim for having frozen them out of the coalition by throwing his weight behind their candidate. It's one of the reasons I couldn't bring myself to vote for him in this past election.

Raisin

Sat, May 16 2015, 7:51 pm

vintagebknyc wrote:

so explain this to me. I'm BT, raised conservative. my parents were married by an elderly reform rabbi who is deceased, and in a shul that no longer exists. if they had a ketubah, nobody knows where it is (I asked, this morning). everyone in my family, on both sides, are buried in non-denominational cemeteries. both sets of grandparents were married by justices of the piece.

how do I prove to you that I am jewish?

You raise some good questions. But I am curious - what happens if someone in your situation wants to get married in an orthodox shul in the states? Say a Young Israel shul. Do they require any documentation?

Jeanette

Sat, May 16 2015, 10:26 pm

After 3 generations, don't they have a chazaka that they're Jewish?

Also, isn't the burden of proof on the rabbinate to prove that the conversion was invalid rather than the other way around?

And is this really a situation calling for extreme stringency? What is the gain from retroactively negating the conversion of an entire family? The rabbonim should be bending over backwards to find heterim in such a case.

samantha87

Sat, May 16 2015, 11:31 pm

Sanguine wrote:

Interesting. I read about a local Chabad (in New Jersey) doing a mass wedding for some middle aged Russian couples recently. It's a nice idea and probably gave the couples lots of chizuk, but I dobut it's at all halachically necessary. They have been living openly as husband and wife for decades.

samantha87

Sat, May 16 2015, 11:48 pm

Raisin wrote:

rowo wrote:

To answer those who asked about how ppl prove their yiddishkeit, before marrying a couple most orthodox rabbis (I'm assuming its most bc the ones I know do this) will ask for copies of parents kesubos and or a gett. If there is no documentation like that more research is involved.

When I got married (US, RCA rabbi) our rabbi asked for our parents and grandparents Hebrew names and where they were from, and if any of the women were not born Jewish or were divorced. That's it. That information went on to a form all RCA rabbis are supposed to file with the RCA office. Chances are it's now in a box at the bottom of a big pile.

We were both frum and I had been a member of his shul for a few years, so maybe he would have dug deeper if he hadn't known me. But still, extensive investigations are just the invention of the bureaucratic Rabbanut.

abemom2

Sat, May 16 2015, 11:51 pm

samantha87 wrote:

It is necessary, and that is why mass weddings has been going on for over 25 years in many different communities. A friend recently learned with a 70 year old Russian woman. Her children and grandchildren decided that for their parents 50th wedding anniversary, they should have a proper Chupa. This wasn't a mass wedding, just the family...

bluebird

Sun, May 17 2015, 12:24 am

Yael3 wrote:

Wow. So what if this woman (or any of the 50 family members, for that matter) decided that based on being declared a non-Jew, they skip the conversion and decide to take the "out" and live as the non-Jews they've been declared to be. Was THAT taken into consideration!???

This would be an interesting shaila to ask of the rabbi who declared them non-Jews.

etky

Sun, May 17 2015, 12:38 am

Jeanette wrote:

You would think. But that is not the zeitgeist that informs today's ultraorthodox rabbanut.
Few can recall or are aware of the ironic fact that back in the early years of the rabbanut, when it still rose to the challenges that statehood posed, it was none other than R' Eliashiv z"l, (not exactly know for his leniencies...) who made landmark, humane halachic decisions in famous cases involving agunot, mamzerut and such that seemed insoluble so as to avert tragic situations like this one. It is unfathomable that in this case - which pales before the cases that R' Eliashiv z"l adjudicated in the sense of halachic complexity - a petty clerk in this same institution was allowed to wreak such havoc, to play with people's lives with such callousness and unthinking lack of sensitivity.

Dolly Welsh

Sun, May 17 2015, 1:49 am

Every case is different, but I know of one case, of secular Jews who became close to a Chabad shaliach rabbi, in a Chabad House.

When their kid wanted to marry in Israel, that was possible, because of a letter this Chabad rabbi wrote to the rabbanut, saying he personally knew the young man's family to be entirely Jewish. There were NO ketubahs anywhere in that entirely secular family, so that letter was crucial.

The young lady had her own situation, which I don't know about; her case was a little similar, I think.

The marriage took place in Israel, ketubah and all, all kosher, no problems. About ten years ago.

I don't say Chabad solves all problems, but think of Chabad.

"My Chabad rabbi says I am Jewish" makes you Jewish.

Perhaps, depending. But that was enough, in this case.

You would have to really be known to the rabbi, not just have dinner there twice and make three minyans; maybe you would have to really get involved, and care, and study consistently with him over time. I am not saying it is instant.

Last edited by Dolly Welsh on Sun, May 17 2015, 1:53 am; edited 1 time in total

SRS

Sun, May 17 2015, 1:51 am

cbg wrote:

From what I understood from the article, rabbis that are eligible to convert must and should be recognized by the Rabbanut. Not just any orthodox rabbi can do a conversion. The same as not any orthodox rabbi can write a gett.

Actually to effect a conversion or to make a proper get, a beis din of shomrei shabbos are needed and that is really it. That isn't to say this is the method that should be employed in such grave matters. But I think you are mistaken in the belief that only Rabbis can perform certain functions.

ora_43

Sun, May 17 2015, 2:44 am

I find it disturbing that so many people are saying so many nasty things about the Rabbinate, based on so little actual information.

Just FTR, the hareidi media coverage is pretty different. Like, it says there that the rabbis made many attempts to clarify the family's status, and that ultimately there was a psak validating the mother of the family's status but that a quick giyur l'chumra was done as well.

Quote:

ביה"ד הרבני לא שקט עד לבירור ממצה וכתיבת פסק דין מנומק, שהתיר את אם המשפחה ובכך הכשיר את כל המשפחה. ביה"ד העביר את כל ילדי המשפחה ונכדיהם טבילה ביום מרוכז, הכל בצורה שקטה ומכובדת, ולמשפחה, שלום.

מנכ"לית משרד המשפטים, עו"ד אמי פלמור: "יש לשבח את בית הדין הרבני על המאמץ והמסירות שהושקעה במקרה על מנת למצוא פיתרון הלכתי לבעיה אנושית" .

(from Kikar Hashabat)

Maybe the Rabbinate really was acting unreasonably here. Maybe. But I think it's unfair to criticize based on an article that gives zero sense of either what the halachic issue was (it's clear from other sources that there was some actual issue, not just "meh, not sure who that guy is, better make them all convert again") or what the family involved thought of the whole thing (it's possible that they chose giyur l'chumra, preferring to have zero doubts re: status in the future rather than going with a rabbinic opinion that not 100% of people would rely on).

shabbatiscoming

Sun, May 17 2015, 3:43 am

Miri7 wrote:

This is a primary reason that I will not make Aliyah. I don't want to live knowing that the rabbanut may decide at any point to declare my kids and me not Jewish.

We are frum but not charedi. I'm not sure I would pass their test.

and so are a gazzillion other people in israel that have made aliyah. I just wanted to point that out in case you thought that all of the religious jews in israel were somehow charedi. There are many many many many communities of modern orthodox people or just plain frum jews. I made aliyah am am proudly not charedi. No problems from the beit din.
(Im sorry to harp on your post but it makes me very upset when I hear people say that this is the reason they wont make aliyah.)

shabbatiscoming

Sun, May 17 2015, 3:51 am

vintagebknyc wrote:

I was never asked for my parent's ketuba. I was asked to have a letter from the rav of my shul stating that I was jewish and that my parents are. That was all.

Barbara, lets not be overly dramatic. Just because this terrible story happened does not mean that everyone who might have something not perfect in their history may not be able to live here. It is not that way all of the time. Not even close.

Sanguine

Sun, May 17 2015, 4:34 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Barbara, lets not be overly dramatic. Just because this terrible story happened does not mean that everyone who might have something not perfect in their history may not be able to live here. It is not that way all of the time. Not even close.

But it's so much fun to be such a super liberal and just shun anything related to your own heritage. The super-liberals really can't live in Israel cause we actually take pride in our heritage. We're a democracy but we're also the Jewish country. It's amazing that such a thing exists. Our nation also revolves around our religion cause that's what Judaism is. A religion!!