50 members of family required to convert after 1960s convers

Sanguine

Mon, May 18 2015, 2:12 pm

I think it would have been shocking to the family but being that they're Chareidi (or let's say very seriously religious), they probably were relieved that a giyur l'chumra (Charedim love Chumras), took away any question. I would want to do it (and I'm very far from Chareidi). I would not fight the Rabbis to prove a point and then go through life knowing that my Judaism was questionable by Rabbis who know a lot more about Halacha than I do.

Someone once told me something that they do on Shabbat that I knew was wrong. She said, It's OK - This is how my mother did it. And her mother did too... I guess Barbara could befriend that woman. Why make waves? I'd hate to question the practices of her great great grandmother.

etky

Mon, May 18 2015, 3:18 pm

What bothers me is the whole nature of the list. It's no secret that in recent years at least, the rabbinate has played around with the list and removed or threatened to remove US rabbis who have more lliberal worldviews in issues that have nothing to do with conversion. The list is hardly a reflection of some Divine truth but rather a product of religious politics. What about conversions abroad -past and present- performed under orthodox auspices but not those recognized by the haredi Israeli rabbinate. They're not halachic because the rabbis who performed them don't hew to the ultraorthodox stance of the rabbanut on a whole slew of issues?
This woman and her entire family were subjected to terrible ogmat nefesh. The very calling of their Jewishness into question ( with all the attendant psychological and social implications) is the crux of it, not the relative 'ease' (dunking in the mikva) with which the problem was resolved. You don't play around with people like that. Their Jewishness should never have come into question -even if it meant coming up with a creative solution like retroactively including the orthodox rabbi who performed the mother's conversion in the all important list. Stranger halachic solutions have been found for much more intractible halachic problems and giyur is a relatively flexible matter.

ora_43

Thu, May 21 2015, 10:58 am

Barbara wrote:

Yeah. Right. The woman was told "gee, we're not going to allow you to marry because in our opinion, your mother's conversion may not have been valid, and you're not a Jew."

But that had nothing -- NOTHING -- to do with her siblings. Or their children. Or their grandchildren. Because, gee, maybe the conversion was valid for THEIR mother, grandmother, great-grandmother, but not the original woman's. Even though it was the same person.

For 50 years these people lived as Jews. They're Jews. No one has the right to look back half a century ... or half a year ... to question a completed conversion.

You're still talking about an imaginary issue, and not necessarily about what actually happened. Because it's still not clear from the jpost article what happened, while OTOH we have another article saying the beit din found a halachic solution and declared everyone Jewish.

It's absurd to keep debating about a situation that *might* be what happened (but according to various media reports apparently isn't... ) as if it were a situation that actually happened. Discussing theory makes sense, but it should be clearly theory - not a criticism of these actual rabbis for something that's literally the opposite of what they did.

Barbara

Thu, May 21 2015, 11:19 am

ora_43 wrote:

Oh, so the woman was allowed to marry without a conversion dunking. And the rest of the family just came to say mazel tov at the wedding. No dunking at all. They were declared 100% Jewish. The Jerusalem Post lied.

Still waiting for the retraction from the Jerusalem Post. Or an article that says what you claim. Since we both agree that what you posted doesn't say that.

silbergirl

Sun, Feb 28 2016, 1:20 pm

Sorry to bump that topic up, but....
I have always defended the Rabbanuts decisions (blaming them "posul" a conversion on the ground of someone converting for ulterior motives, not being religious, blah blah...) UNTIL I came across this incident. This family has been chareidi for the last 60 years!!!

I personally know many many many cases of totally serious converts who lived religious lives, got married and had conversions that initially were said to be accepted by the Rabbanut. As of lately (1-2 months ago) the Rabbanut started a policy only to accept chutz conversions of women where at least one member of the Israeli Rabbanut was present.

Know a lady who converted twice orthodox, the second time she was assured by many authorities (also rabbanut affilited ones) it was good in Israel. She attended sem in Israel, became a member of religious communities, married with a local gadol WITHOUT issues. She is chareidi and has been that way since she converted. A month ago the Rabbanut decided to posul her conversion "because she left the community where she did the giur after her conversion". Wow. Thirteen years after the conversion. Turns out they did not even look into her lifestyle, called the Av Beis Din or anything. For anyone who may say now: Ah, maybe she was stupid enough to just go with a chareidi conversion, as most of them are not Rabbanut accepted - this particular beis din was MARKETED off as offering "universally accepted conversions"! It was good until last month. She is heartbroken and does not know what to do.

Another story, a lady I personally know, she is Swedish, converted with a respected beis din in America, attended sem in Israel, got married at a big American kiruv organization. As a kiruv project. Went to Israel with her husband. Marriage is crumbling, she wants to go for Aliya. Finds out, Rabbanut does not accept her conversion to allow her to make aliya BUT deems her jewish enough to grant her a get. She had to redo the whole process, 2 years!!!

The Rabbanut must go! Its enough!!!!!