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-> Parenting our children
-> Preschoolers
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amother
Coral
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 Sun, May 17 2015, 7:40 pm
We live in apartment building with 6 families on each floor. The hallway is used by all families for the children to ride bikes and socialize, especially on shabbos in the rain, when everyone is cooped up. The children's tricycles and bicycles are not used without permission from the owner, but smaller ride-on toddler toys are used without permission if they are left in the hall.
DD is 5 years old, and a very sensitive soul. One of the neighbors has a child, lets call her Sarah, who is almost two years older than DD but a bit immature. She has bullied DD in the past, called her names, told others secrets in front of her to make her feel bat, scratched, pinched, hit, etc. For manny months DD wouldn't go into the hallways without me next to her for fear of what this child would do to her. She will even hurt DD when I am right there!
This past shabbos DD got off her bike for a minute and Sarah sat down on it. DD told her she needed to ask permission, and Sarah told her it isn't her bike anyway, it is Hashem's. So DD came over and held onto the handlebars, and told her she can't use it without permission (I was a few yards away with the baby, facing the opposite direction). Sarah dug her fingernails into DD's arm very hard, DD did not bleed, but a chunk ok skin was scratched off, and there were two other nail marks that are still visible and bright red 24 hours later. When DD cried out and I came over, she ran into her apartment and sat a few feet from the open front door. I am very calm by nature, and never yell. I followed right her into the apartment, where I saw she was sitting right next to her mother. I marched right up to her fax, crouched to eye-level, and said in the loudest voice I could muster: "YOU MAY NEVER HURT MY CHILD." The child was visibly intimidated, but two hours later so knocked on my door and asked if she could borrow a book to read… so I don't think I make that much of an impact...
The mother of this child hardly reacts when this child and two of her younger siblings behave inappropriately. They hurt other children, ride bikes over other children's feet intentionally, call adults and children names, open neighbors doors without permission for fun, and more. Sometimes she tells them to come inside, but she only follows through 20% of the time, if that much. She, and the kids, have never apologized for the many instances of physical assault, taunting, and chutzpah they have inflicted on us. I try to be friendly to the mother, I know she has it hard. She has told me that she doesn't know what to do to parent these kids, and I just try to commiserate…
What do I do now? DH is so mad he wants us to potch the kids when they hurt our, but I am sure thats illegal, among other issues.  . This cannot continue as is, and the mother is making no move to get it to stop. Aside from finding a new home, which we will do as soon as we can, but it won't be less than a year…
How do I protect my children for getting attacked when they leave the house, even in my presence? How do I get through to these children that they MUST stop these behaviors?
What do I do????
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dancingqueen
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Sun, May 17 2015, 7:46 pm
Potching a kid who acts aggresive just would teach sarah and your dd that's it's ok to hurt others when you are angry, plus you can't hit someone else's kid as you know.
You have to try to talk to the girls mom and ask her to intervene. If she really won't teach your daughter to say loudly, "no scratching" or I was using that. If her mom does nothing than I think you can tell sarah, we do not hit/scratch, hopefully she will leave your dd alone. Hugs.
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MamaBear
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Sun, May 17 2015, 7:51 pm
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Instead of giving the other child negative attention, publicly praise your daughter for her good behavior and give her lots of sympathy for her booboos. Then briefly tell the other child that the playdate is over because she hurt your daughter and you hope she can play nicely next time. And every time she hurts your child, you say the same thing and right away leave. Eventually, the child will learn that playtime ends quickly when she misbehaves.
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mummiedearest
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Sun, May 17 2015, 8:07 pm
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I would escort her home every time she does something to any other child. knock on the door, and inform her mother in a matter-of-fact manner "sarah cannot play outside with the other kids now, she hurt so-and-so. she has to play inside your apartment now." then walk away. you can't make her understand playtime is over by going inside yourself, there are other kids outside to play with. I suggest you get together with the other mothers and all agree to do this anytime this child bothers the other kids. while it's very nice to feel bad for the mother, your children need to be protected. sarah should be warned that this is the policy from now on. beyond the initial statement, there should be no more warnings.
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oliveoil
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Sun, May 17 2015, 8:33 pm
| MamaBear wrote: | | Instead of giving the other child negative attention, publicly praise your daughter for her good behavior and give her lots of sympathy for her booboos. Then briefly tell the other child that the playdate is over because she hurt your daughter and you hope she can play nicely next time. And every time she hurts your child, you say the same thing and right away leave. Eventually, the child will learn that playtime ends quickly when she misbehaves. |
Doesn't sound like this is a playdate, just a shared play space.
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imasinger
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Sun, May 17 2015, 8:34 pm
In the moment, I think you handled it just right. Given the situation, I think you will have to limit your kids' hall playtime either to when the Misbehavers are not there, or when you can keep two eyes on all your kids. Not everyone would agree with me, but I would tell DD that while in general, you encourage her to handle herself with other kids, with these kids, she should call for you at the first sign of trouble.
It's a shame, but safety comes first. My hunch is that even if you persuaded the parents to do anything, they would overreact and punish too strongly. Those bullying behaviors may possibly have been first seen in overauthoritative adults.
You can't change these kids, so you have to protect your own.
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amother
Coral
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Sun, May 17 2015, 8:56 pm
OP here
Thanks for your responses.
I guess I need to add more history here. This child is almost 7 years old. Whenever she hurts DD, she either runs home, or I send her. When she has not bothered DD in a few months, and DD feels ready, we may invite her over. DD doesn't feel comfortable going to her house to play, she feels more 'safe' she I am around. They usually play ver nicely together. She can be cute, sweet, agreeable and complimentary, but she can also be passive aggressive, ex. she will step on someones toes HARD, and feign innocence. Whenever I see her, I compliment her clothing, middos, knowledge, or just smile warmly. After an 'episode', I am cold towards her for a few days, andDD will not leave the house without me right next to her, and will refuse Sarah's requests for playdates for weeks or even months.
In response to MamaBear, I have responded this way to this child probably 3 times in 2 years. Other than that I just ignore and usher my own child away and speak to her about it. She is well aware that it will end the playdate, and that DD will refuse to talk to her for weeks, but she doesn't seem to be able to control herself.
I feel so stuck in this situation!
mummidearest- I really like your suggestion. I will try it.
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imasoftov
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Mon, May 18 2015, 4:05 am
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Put a child IN HER PLACE? Srsly?
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amother
Coral
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Mon, May 18 2015, 10:08 am
imasoftov, sorry for being dense, but can you elaborate?
I thought my phraseology was appropriate for a seven year old, who (falsely) calls adults liars, open others' doors to yell gibberish inside, and rides bicycles over babies' feet for kicks.
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mummiedearest
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Mon, May 18 2015, 10:22 am
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op, do NOT act cold towards the child for a few days after an incident. everything has to be calm and matter-of-fact. you hurt someone, you can't play. the end. if the child requests a playdate in your apartment, you have the option of telling said child that her recent behavior is preventing you from hosting her due to safety concerns. even that has to be stated normally, though. no cold shoulder, just explanation of cause and effect.
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Barbara
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Mon, May 18 2015, 10:38 am
| amother wrote: | imasoftov, sorry for being dense, but can you elaborate?
I thought my phraseology was appropriate for a seven year old, who (falsely) calls adults liars, open others' doors to yell gibberish inside, and rides bicycles over babies' feet for kicks. |
Putting someone in their place means that you view yourself as superior to them, and you are reinforcing that person's position as an underling.
You have no right to put someone else's child in her place. Nor do you have any right to discipline someone else's child.
What you do have the right to do is to protect your child, and to govern her activities. You can take this girl to her parents and report her actions. And if they don't stop, you can get your child out of the way.
Why are children playing in the hallways, rather than in their own apartments? I raised DS in an apartment, and those activities would have been strictly forbidden, and rightly so. I cannot imagine 5 years olds riding bicycles in hallways, with younger children on other riding toys.
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amother
Amethyst
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Mon, May 18 2015, 11:06 am
I can understand OP perfectly. Barbara, the issue isn't that they're playing in a hallway. The chiildren are playing in a public play area and one child is hurting other children, and her parents do nothing about it.
Sounds familiar. We have the same thing where we live. I feel very bad for children whose parents don't parent them. Children need parents to teach them right from wrong, as well as what is and isn't social behavior. In my case, we have a parent who believes is defensive parenting (basically only telling a child not to hang from an electric pipe IF it snaps and sparks all over the place - then she'll tell him he shouldn't do that again. Until then, feel free to run wild) and doesn't supervise them on a regular basis.
I have unofficially taken on the job of building witch. The child and mother in my building are both realizing (and will continue to realize) that I'm not going to sit there and watch him hurt / endanger other children. I made it very clear to the mother that I do not care what happens to her child, but that if my children are around I don't want them in harm's way. Hopefully, he will stop misbehaving when he sees me, because I'm pretty obnoxious. I'm sorry it has to be that way, but I put my children before him. And I am not prepared to keep my children cooped inside all year because of one mis-parented child.
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chavs
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Mon, May 18 2015, 12:25 pm
I wouldn't let my child play with those kids. You can't discipline other kids but you can make sure yours remain safe by not letting them play unsupervised in the hallway.
If you want your daughter to play with the other kids you can ask the other kids parents if their child can come over for a playdate in your house or if you can take their child on a playdate to the park or playground.
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chavs
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Mon, May 18 2015, 12:28 pm
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I would have said that you could also teach your child to stand up for herself but it sounds like you have, it sounds like she did really well actually, so well done. If I were you I would talk to your daughter and tell her that even though "Sarah "didn't listen she did very well!
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imasoftov
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Mon, May 18 2015, 4:26 pm
| Barbara wrote: | Putting someone in their place means that you view yourself as superior to them, and you are reinforcing that person's position as an underling.
You have no right to put someone else's child in her place. Nor do you have any right to discipline someone else's child.
What you do have the right to do is to protect your child, and to govern her activities. You can take this girl to her parents and report her actions. And if they don't stop, you can get your child out of the way.
Why are children playing in the hallways, rather than in their own apartments? I raised DS in an apartment, and those activities would have been strictly forbidden, and rightly so. I cannot imagine 5 years olds riding bicycles in hallways, with younger children on other riding toys. |
this
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kb
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Mon, May 18 2015, 4:39 pm
| Barbara wrote: | Putting someone in their place means that you view yourself as superior to them, and you are reinforcing that person's position as an underling.
You have no right to put someone else's child in her place. Nor do you have any right to discipline someone else's child.
What you do have the right to do is to protect your child, and to govern her activities. You can take this girl to her parents and report her actions. And if they don't stop, you can get your child out of the way.
Why are children playing in the hallways, rather than in their own apartments? I raised DS in an apartment, and those activities would have been strictly forbidden, and rightly so. I cannot imagine 5 years olds riding bicycles in hallways, with younger children on other riding toys. |
We don't know what the halls look like there. OOC - if the children in the building played in the hallway when your son was growing up, would you have allowed him to play there? Or would you have said "hallways are not for playing"?
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Barbara
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Mon, May 18 2015, 5:37 pm
| kb wrote: | | We don't know what the halls look like there. OOC - if the children in the building played in the hallway when your son was growing up, would you have allowed him to play there? Or would you have said "hallways are not for playing"? |
You're missing my point. (1) Allowing 5 year olds -- and 7 year olds -- to ride bikes in a hallway, particularly in a hallway with toddlers playing as well -- is not likely to ever end well. Its too confined a space for children that old. (2) You cannot control the actions of others; all you can do is leave.
ETA -- the reason I referred to the fact that DS didn't play in the hallway was to avoid the inevitable "you don't know because ...." As I do know, because I did it myself.
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kb
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Mon, May 18 2015, 7:24 pm
| Barbara wrote: | You're missing my point. (1) Allowing 5 year olds -- and 7 year olds -- to ride bikes in a hallway, particularly in a hallway with toddlers playing as well -- is not likely to ever end well. Its too confined a space for children that old. (2) You cannot control the actions of others; all you can do is leave.
ETA -- the reason I referred to the fact that DS didn't play in the hallway was to avoid the inevitable "you don't know because ...." As I do know, because I did it myself. |
My apartment building has an enclosed outdoor yard that the children play with, but it's narrow. About the size of some apartment building hallways. But that's all we have, so the kids learn to make the most of that space. It's difficult, but you deal with the situation on hand.
Would you say "this isn't an optimal play area" and just keep the kids indoors?
Eta: I'm discussing point 1 over here.
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Barbara
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Mon, May 18 2015, 7:46 pm
| kb wrote: | My apartment building has an enclosed outdoor yard that the children play with, but it's narrow. About the size of some apartment building hallways. But that's all we have, so the kids learn to make the most of that space. It's difficult, but you deal with the situation on hand.
Would you say "this isn't an optimal play area" and just keep the kids indoors?
Eta: I'm discussing point 1 over here. |
It's a designated play space, so I would let me child play there. But not with a bike. That type of space just isn't big enough for a kid with a bike, particularly not with toddlers around. As I said, its not likely to end well.
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kb
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Mon, May 18 2015, 8:11 pm
Makes sense in theory, less in practice -
if all the other kids are riding bikes, your child's not riding a bike isn't going to make a difference to the general possibility of a good ending. And if all the kids are riding bikes, it's going to take a very disciplined child to not ride bikes like everyone else.
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