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cinnamon
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 Wed, Jun 03 2015, 5:26 am
Oh sorry. for some reason it opened the aveira song first time I clicked on it.
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perseverance613
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Wed, Jun 03 2015, 9:42 am
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Why are you making fun of halacha on here? Are you going to do this every time you hear of a person, with no connection to you, who tries to promote nonsense under the guise of halacha?
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youngishbear
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Wed, Jun 03 2015, 9:54 am
| perseverance613 wrote: | | Why are you making fun of halacha on here? Are you going to do this every time you hear of a person, with no connection to you, who tries to promote nonsense under the guise of halacha? |
This is exactly why imamother was/is/will be banned.
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zaq
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Wed, Jun 03 2015, 6:00 pm
| perseverance613 wrote: | | Why are you making fun of halacha on here? Are you going to do this every time you hear of a person, with no connection to you, who tries to promote nonsense under the guise of halacha? |
You don't get it, do you? Nobody is making fun ch"V of legitimate halacha. They are punkt making fun of people who promote nonsense under the guise of halacha. And, Heaven help us, there are so many of those.
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imasoftov
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Wed, Jun 03 2015, 6:46 pm
| zaq wrote: | | You don't get it, do you? Nobody is making fun ch"V of legitimate halacha. They are punkt making fun of people who promote nonsense under the guise of halacha. And, Heaven help us, there are so many of those. |
And those are the same folks who are going to ban us ...
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mummiedearest
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Wed, Jun 03 2015, 6:49 pm
| imasoftov wrote: | | And those are the same folks who are going to ban us ... |
that's fine, they won't be able to read what we say about them. oh, wait. banning us will give us a larger readership 
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cookiejar
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Wed, Jun 03 2015, 6:55 pm
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I have to say, I think more alarming - or more amusing - or both - than this post, is what the secular culture/media will look like by that point!! I mean, seriously, what will they be condoning/excusing or even celebrating by then?? Ppl marrying animals? Marrying their own children? Surgically being altered into creatures from other planets?? I almost can't think past where we are today, but satirizing our chumros gone haywire, to me doesn't hold a candle to satirizing the world at large! Anyone have an idea what will be gracing the cover of Vanity Fair (if you've seen the news this week...) at THAT point?? Scary scary... Chime in if you can picture it...
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mummiedearest
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Wed, Jun 03 2015, 7:02 pm
| cookiejar wrote: | | I have to say, I think more alarming - or more amusing - or both - than this post, is what the secular culture/media will look like by that point!! I mean, seriously, what will they be condoning/excusing or even celebrating by then?? Ppl marrying animals? Marrying their own children? Surgically being altered into creatures from other planets?? I almost can't think past where we are today, but satirizing our chumros gone haywire, to me doesn't hold a candle to satirizing the world at large! Anyone have an idea what will be gracing the cover of Vanity Fair (if you've seen the news this week...) at THAT point?? Scary scary... Chime in if you can picture it... |
cookiejar, we've already survived michael jackson. nuf said.
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imasoftov
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Wed, Jun 03 2015, 7:03 pm
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The difference between what this thread is satirizing and what you are, cookiejar, is that we are satirizing things people want to do to US, and which will make our lives worse if they succeed. You are satirizing things that people want to do to THEMSELVES, and even if you disagree that this will improve their lives, it does NOTHING to yours unless you choose to let it.
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mummiedearest
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Wed, Jun 03 2015, 7:23 pm
| imasoftov wrote: | | The difference between what this thread is satirizing and what you are, cookiejar, is that we are satirizing things people want to do to US, and which will make our lives worse if they succeed. You are satirizing things that people want to do to THEMSELVES, and even if you disagree that this will improve their lives, it does NOTHING to yours unless you choose to let it. |
well, gender change surgery does affect our lives. you may not realize this.
1) from what I've heard, certain states require one undergoing a gender change to live as that gender for a period of time prior to the surgery (a year? don't recall). this means the person has to, among other things, use the bathroom designated for the gender s/he intends to become. granted, women's bathrooms involve stalls with doors. but when I was a newlywed, I frequently went into public bathrooms to retie my tichel, figuring there were only women in there. I have since stopped doing that. for men, it means women dressed as men may be entering the bathroom to use the stalls. not sure it's actually a halachic problem for men to use the urinals in these people's presence (KSA says a man can go in the street if he needs to, iirc), but it certainly is an uncomfortable situation.
2) yichud issues. do we consider these people their birth gender or otherwise, and how does that affect people in their daily lives? professionally, academically, etc., this could be a big problem.
3) negiah issues. can we shake the hand of a woman who used to be a man? can we shake the hand of a man who used to be a woman? and for both points three and two: what about interactions with someone who is on the road to surgery?
4) secular issues: dating. when does one reveal one's past gender, and can people always be trusted to reveal this?
while we are certainly not physically hurt by transgenders, there are ramifications for others. just pointing that out. on with the previously scheduled satire.
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zaq
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Wed, Jun 03 2015, 7:29 pm
| imasoftov wrote: | | And those are the same folks who are going to ban us ... |
So? being banned by a group that is doing wrong is an honor.
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yenny
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Wed, Jun 03 2015, 7:36 pm
[quote="Frumdoc"]Separate homes for men and women, women live with children all week and men live in dorms and only visit for conjugal rights for half an hour on a Friday night plus on mikvah night.
Darling it's called the "country" with men being away all week and ladies sitting upstate all summer long.
Imagine there would be a gzeira or hala hic ruling that men have to be away from their wives all week oh the rabbi ,orthodox bashing that would be going on.
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mummiedearest
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Wed, Jun 03 2015, 7:41 pm
[quote="yenny"] | Frumdoc wrote: | Separate homes for men and women, women live with children all week and men live in dorms and only visit for conjugal rights for half an hour on a Friday night plus on mikvah night.
Darling it's called the "country" with men being away all week and ladies sitting upstate all summer long.
Imagine there would be a gzeira or hala hic ruling that men have to be away from their wives all week oh the rabbi ,orthodox bashing that would be going on. |
actually, I believe the ancient greeks had a setup like this. wives were for childbearing and lived in separate quarters from the men. it was common for men to have relationships with other men to fill all the other roles we associate with wives. sons moved to their fathers' quarters at a certain age. not a fun picture.
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imasoftov
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Fri, Jun 05 2015, 4:57 am
| mummiedearest wrote: | well, gender change surgery does affect our lives. you may not realize this.
1) from what I've heard, certain states require one undergoing a gender change to live as that gender for a period of time prior to the surgery (a year? don't recall). this means the person has to, among other things, use the bathroom designated for the gender s/he intends to become. granted, women's bathrooms involve stalls with doors. but when I was a newlywed, I frequently went into public bathrooms to retie my tichel, figuring there were only women in there. I have since stopped doing that. for men, it means women dressed as men may be entering the bathroom to use the stalls. not sure it's actually a halachic problem for men to use the urinals in these people's presence (KSA says a man can go in the street if he needs to, iirc), but it certainly is an uncomfortable situation.
2) yichud issues. do we consider these people their birth gender or otherwise, and how does that affect people in their daily lives? professionally, academically, etc., this could be a big problem.
3) negiah issues. can we shake the hand of a woman who used to be a man? can we shake the hand of a man who used to be a woman? and for both points three and two: what about interactions with someone who is on the road to surgery?
4) secular issues: dating. when does one reveal one's past gender, and can people always be trusted to reveal this?
while we are certainly not physically hurt by transgenders, there are ramifications for others. just pointing that out. on with the previously scheduled satire. |
I asked a rabbi about your three halachic issues. He said that you do not have to worry that any random person is transgendered, and if you are in the presence of someone you know to be, there is still room to be lenient, as the Tzitz Eliezer held that change of external genitalia changes the person's gender for halacha.
Also, just a trivia question, when was gender change surgery first performed? Or are you worried that after the Vanity Fair cover all the cool kids will want it?
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Iymnok
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Fri, Jun 05 2015, 5:32 am
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I just asked Dh about this. He said Rav Elyashiv was asked (he told me who asked) by someone involved in Kiruv about a real situation. He was told to change back. But he wasn't ready for that yet. So Rav Elyashiv said he should daven on the men's side covered with a Tallis. He viewed him as a man despite the surgery.
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grace413
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Fri, Jun 05 2015, 5:58 am
| imasoftov wrote: |
Also, just a trivia question, when was gender change surgery first performed? ? |
I don't remember the year but I believe it was mtf George/Christine Jorgenson.
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Ema of 5
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Fri, Jun 05 2015, 7:10 am
| mummiedearest wrote: | | actually, I believe the ancient greeks had a setup like this. wives were for childbearing and lived in separate quarters from the men. it was common for men to have relationships with other men to fill all the other roles we associate with wives. sons moved to their fathers' quarters at a certain age. not a fun picture. |
Why do we have to turn to the Greeks? Jews used to live this way!! Women had their own tents.....Avraham set up Sara's tent before he set up his own.....the whole thing with reuvain and Rochel and Leah's tents.....and there were also separate tents where women went from when they started bleeding until they went to the Mikva.
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