Why is this even happening?????

mandr

Wed, Jun 10 2015, 8:59 pm

This is insanity! I just drove by a lot in Monsey where they are in the process of demolishing a home. The home is still intact but the trees have been razed to the ground and the windows and doors are open. I saw no less than 20 boys throwing rocks through the windows, smashing glass left and right with pieces flying everywhere. I told dh he should tell them something because I know they probably wouldn't listen to me (being that I'm a woman) and he said, "they have parents." If he wouldn't have been in the car, I'd have gone out and done something, but dh was just driving further. I was like, but how are the parents supposed to know what their kids are doing if they aren't supervising them? And face it, a 10 year old boy is allowed to ride his bike around the neighborhood and I'm sure his parents aren't expected to follow after him (and he certainly will not recount the event at night). So how WOULD the parents really know?!

MagentaYenta

Wed, Jun 10 2015, 9:03 pm

mommyla wrote:

No, this train really does go under 20 mph. It's a nuisance to be stuck at the crossing when it goes by, and I'm happy that it's only once a week. But regardless of speed, I am shocked by the morons in this town who mistreat the train and endanger themselves and everyone else.

Do you know it takes more than 100 yards for that train to stop? That is the minimum for a small freight train (5 cars) and the distance increases depending on the number of loaded cars. Each car behind it has stored energy due to the forward momentum of the train and keeps it moving forward until that energy is exhausted or it is stopped by an object.

mommyla

Wed, Jun 10 2015, 9:05 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

Oh, I know, I took physics Smile

I'm absolutely not condoning what they do, I think these people are a bunch of idiots and when tragedy strikes, ch"v, there will be tznius asifas but people will still continue doing stupid things.

zaq

Wed, Jun 10 2015, 10:15 pm

Some of these people really don't have the brains G-d gave a flea, in which case He is to blame for letting such creatures reproduce. But I think most of them take the idea of "hashgacha pratit" a tad too literally, conveniently forgetting that "venishmartem me'od lenafshotechem" is a mitzvat asseh and is interpreted not merely metaphysically in the sense of looking out for one's soul but also literally in the sense of looking out for one's physical well-being, and that "ein somchin al haness". Dina demalchuta dina also does not apply to these special people, because they are, well, special. like the rambunctious kid whose dad is Chairman of the Board, they believe their Father will bail them out no matter what, so they can ignore the safety rules. Safety rules are for people who don't have G-d's special grace.

I don't think it is possible to re-educate people with this mindset. You have to speak to them in language they understand: the language of segulos. Tell them that stopping at a RR crossing till the boom gate goes up is a segulah for a long life. That keeping their kids away from train tracks is a segulah for shidduchim. That preventing kids from destroying property, even such apparently valueless property as rocks, is a segulah for parnassah. You'll see how fast these problems solve themselves.

MagentaYenta

Wed, Jun 10 2015, 11:03 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

I'm going to be brave (or stupid), but I'll say this under my screen name.

Anyone else here thinking that some people are having more kids than they can reasonably supervise? Everyone loves to spout off about "precious Yiddishe neshamos", but when it comes to actually parenting, they're too tired to do anything about it because of their 12 kids, all 18 months apart.

There's no mitzvah to breeding like rabbits, if you're just going to feed them to the wolves.

I agree with you 100%. It's not my place to tell people what to do about their reproductive choices but people must be realistic about their expectations and outcomes. Seriously what can keep a mother from supervising a 2 yo outdoors?

seeker

Wed, Jun 10 2015, 11:35 pm

I am about to write a letter to Torah Umesorah and am sharing here in case others want to follow suit or share other ideas. My reasoning is that the best way to reach parents of children, in addition to children themselves, is through schools because everyone has to go eventually (and can we assume/hope that homeschoolers are usually those who are already supervising their children and teaching them basic safety and decency?!) And just about every religious Jewish school in the US is networked with Torah Umesorah. They have perhaps unparalleled access to principals, who in turn have unparalleled access to the parents and children of their respective schools.

I am going to ask that they begin initiatives to tackle this issue. For example, parents can be required to attend a safety orientation a minimum of one time per family within the first year that they have a child in the school. Additional safety seminars may be offered optionally but a requirement for school attendance should be that parents are educated about reasonable expectations of children of various ages (rabbi in long beard shouting from pulpit that leaving a 6-year-old to watch toddlers is pikuach nefesh and chayav kares, maybe? - I'm sure I'm using the wrong words. I don't talk fireandbrimstone) and relevant local laws regarding safety and supervision, including ages at which children are legally allowed to babysit (which usually include siblings and probably include if the parents are home but the kids are outside their property), car seat regulations, etc. They may grumble but I think once per family per lifetime is reasonable (and you can have certificates of attendance so if you have kids in different schools one attendance can exempt from the rest)

Then they need to have education for children as well. WHY would any 10-year-old think it's OK to throw rocks at anything, ever? If people thought "it goes without saying" well, apparently it doesn't. So start saying it. Open conversations about safety and mentshlichkeit with all children on a regular basis. My 4-year-old knows better than to do any of these things. Why? Because we talk about it. Start talking and don't stop.

The issue is that that won't happen before next school year and this is urgent because kids probably get into more trouble in the summer than any other time - they have all this time between school and camp and between camp and school, there are more daylight hours and no homework, they're doing a lot more looking for adventure. We need safety talks in school before they are released, and in camps especially day camps (because overnight camps have more programming and supervision, they have their own safety issues but I highly doubt overnight campers are hanging out at railroad tracks much) And they had better be SCARY safety talks with pictures of train wrecks, car wrecks, and whatever else you think they will need to get the message. Anyone know how to make this happen in time? Schools end next week in NY/NJ afaik.

seeker

Wed, Jun 10 2015, 11:39 pm

And I think it has more to do with culture/values than reproductive choices. I know very large families who are very responsibly cared for, and smaller families who aren't. I think it has more to do with what the parents take seriously. Of course, if you are having a hard time managing safety even if it's important to you, that's a sign that maybe you should not load on more people to watch. But in general I have not seen a connection between family size and safety-consciousness. I have seen large families with responsible parents occasionally have a child slip away and be missed very shortly and have a panicked search-and-rescue team disperse and find them shortly B"H, but those are not the people who have multiple small children unsupervised and playing on railroad tracks.

33055

Wed, Jun 10 2015, 11:53 pm

causemommysaid wrote:

I hate to say this but nothing is going to change until someone dies God Forbid. It's really unfortunate.

That doesn't change anything. There have been quite a few deaths in Monsey alone since I moved in of kids getting hit by cars backing up and the young kids are still outside unsupervised. Recently, after the Sassoon tragedy there was another fire in a house without smoke detectors despite the free giveaway of them. The disconnect is frustrating.

[This disconnect continues in many areas like brushing teeth. Those that don't brush will say they were born with bad teeth. They will cite the fact their father had bad teeth meanwhile I am thinking he probably didn't brush either. Those that are foolish with their money will complain Hashem doesn't want them to have more parnosa. ]

ZAQ is 100% right that change has to be presented as segulahs. Logic doesn't work. Now the trick is how to start them.

seeker

Thu, Jun 11 2015, 12:13 am

I think there is a feeling (incorrectly) that 'our' kids would never do such things like common hoodlums. Of course this is. It true; even the holiest children require education and training (which includes supervision and reinforcement) to learn the proper ways to behave. Another aspect perhaps is a slowness to adapt to changes in the world. As circumstances change, we need to refine our methods of dealing with them. For example, maybe in the shtetl it was appropriate for a young child to be responsible for younger children. Or maybe it happened by default at a time when parents were struggling to get settled after the war and did not have resources or support to provide adequate supervision, but we need to grow beyond that. Im just speculating here. I don't know the true reason, just that there is a lack of consciousness about this. Maybe it comes with the overall sense of sheltering and lack of real-world preparation in certain communities. Or maybe I'm stereotyping and the kids at the train tracks are not the ones from sheltered communities at all, I really don't know. Foot going back in mouth just in case. The last thing I want to do is make unfair generalizations, but I can't help pondering possible factors and solutions.

Dolly Welsh

Thu, Jun 11 2015, 12:18 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

Not with you on this one.

If you can teach 12 kids not to eat treif food, you can teach 12 kids to stay away from railroad tracks.

Our people are quite capable of teaching 12 kids anything, but nobody has thought about this yet. Let us hope they will now. A lot of people read Imamother and this thread is very valuable. It literally might save a life or lives.

Plenty of dead idiots did not have 11 siblings. Or any siblings.

It's not the number of siblings. It's what you are thinking and doing.

ora_43

Thu, Jun 11 2015, 8:42 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

I think it's absurd to bring that issue in without having half a clue if that's the problem. You don't know who the kids were, let alone if they have 11 siblings.

There are plenty of kids around here with 0-1 siblings who spend their time doing stupid, dangerous things.

Obviously if a parent isn't supervising, they had more kids than they can reasonably supervise, whether they had one or 20. But it's hurtful and unfair to blame people who "breed like rabbits." Again, you have no idea if that's the issue.

Raisin

Thu, Jun 11 2015, 11:09 am

ora_43 wrote:

I agree with Ora.

I think what is more relevant is that the adults are driving through the shut gate. Clearly they have no respect for safety, so why should their kids?

amother

Orchid

Thu, Jun 11 2015, 11:32 am

Another thing: I once took my kids to an indoor play-space located within a mall. The proprietor came over to me and started complaining about the "ultra orthodox" mothers who leave very small children alone while they go shopping in other stores. She said the mothers will write their cell ph. number on a paper and leave it in the kid's pocket. Once, a three year old was crying, and the proprietor called the mother but she was understandably quite upset.

I was tempted to tell her she should've called the police, but I didn't.

Anon bec. I've told this irl