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Would you give maaser to s/o critical of DH?
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kalsee




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 14 2015, 12:20 am
I would not give tzedaka behind my husband's back.

You're probably not even allowed to do that.
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CPenzias




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 14 2015, 3:43 am
I would also only give through organizations. This sounds a bit shady where she can complain and belittle your husband. She made the choice in life to have a family. She made the choice in life to work at odd jobs (I'm assuming she doesn't have a college education)
it's not your job to pick up the pieces. Especially if she isn't being gracious. Ugh
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amother
Vermilion


 

Post Sun, Jun 14 2015, 3:54 am
5mom wrote:
Why can't you help her through an organization? If she really has these problems, a social service agency should be able to help, not to mention that they are better equipped than most individuals to deal with the emotional end of things.

No, I wouldn't want her children going hungry just because she's a difficult person, but allowing her to drag you down is not a feasible solution. There are ordinary people who fall on hard times and benefit from financial help. Then there are people who are dysfunctional and need more than just money. Giving money without addressing the underlying issues is just a band aid and may prevent the recipient from getting the help she really needs. You can keep them afloat for a while, but if the ship is sinking, they need a full fledged rescue at sea. That's a job for the experts.

Again, I admire your kindness and compassion. I just think that the best thing for everyone involved is to hand the situation over to the experts. Otherwise you will be sucked dry long before this woman is willing to leave you alone.

She is on every program there is. Her husband can't hold down a job.
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cookiecutter




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 14 2015, 4:03 am
zaq wrote:
One time a schnorrer remarked negatively about the sum of money I gave him. I said "you don't like it? then don't take it" and snatched the money right back out of his hand. I know, I'm not a nice person. It's my mitzvah to give tzedaka, but it is also my decision how much to give and to whom. the schnorrer is not entitled to my tzedaka and certainly not to decide how much I should give. If someone doesn't like what I give, there are plenty of others who will accept my contribution pleasantly and with gratitude. I don't have to put up with nastiness. It's my choice, and I choose to give to people who are pleasant.
This post is quite offensive.
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CPenzias




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 14 2015, 4:06 am
cookiecutter wrote:
This post is quite offensive.


Why is it offensive? I would have done the same thing. "Beggars came be choosers."
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cookiecutter




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 14 2015, 4:12 am
CPenzias wrote:
Why is it offensive? I would have done the same thing. "Beggars came be choosers."
No, beggars can't be choosers which is why we should be a bit more sensitive in engaging with them both in person, which I'm sure Zaq was, and in our minds, which it appears she wasn't.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 14 2015, 4:12 am
Taking tzedaka money back out of someone's hand is theft. Once you give it to them, it's theirs.

Certainly people have the right to decide not to give to someone who is being unpleasant in the first place. Although like OP said, dysfunctional people are dysfunctional - just because someone is being rude or not reacting "normally" to needing to live off charity, doesn't mean they aren't genuinely in need.
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Metukah




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 14 2015, 4:13 am
zaq wrote:
One time a schnorrer... I know, I'm not a nice person. the schnorrer....


The only thing in here that makes you a not nice person is your label of the poor person who has to degrade himself to ask you for money. (And the fact that you think you're G-d's secretary and know who is and who isn't entitled). The word schnorrer is the most derogatory word you could use to describe a person who is human just like you, who is in unfortunate circumstances and who has to ask you for help. If I hear a child, doesn't matter who, use the word schnorrer, they get it over their heads. I cannot believe an adult would use that term. If as children we would've used that word at home, my parents would've punished us. We were taught to treat meshulachim/collecters as we would like to be treated. They were always offered something to eat or drink and if they complained that what they got was too little, my mother always apologised and said I'm sorry that's all I could give.
Be thankful to Hashem that you have anything to give and remember that he was sent as a shaliach by Hashem to allow you fulfil the mitzvah of Tzedakah. You need him as much as he needs you.
Sorry for taking this thread off topic but I was truly disturbed.
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Metukah




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 14 2015, 4:20 am
CPenzias wrote:
Why is it offensive? I would have done the same thing. "Beggars came be choosers."


I find this post offensive as well.

Using the phrase 'beggars can't be choosers' to describe an unfortunate soul who has to rely on others for sustenance is offensive imho.
We are also beggars. Whatever we have is from Hashem and none of us chose to be poor or rich or anywhere in the middle. It would do us well to realise that people asking us for Tzedakah are allowing us to fulfil a mitzvah and while we don't have to give more than we can and we can chose to give one over the other, and chose not to give someone we may feel is not genuine etc... It does not mean we have the right in any way to refer to someone in a derogatory way.
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Metukah




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 14 2015, 4:23 am
ora_43 wrote:
Taking tzedaka money back out of someone's hand is theft. Once you give it to them, it's theirs.

Certainly people have the right to decide not to give to someone who is being unpleasant in the first place. Although like OP said, dysfunctional people are dysfunctional - just because someone is being rude or not reacting "normally" to needing to live off charity, doesn't mean they aren't genuinely in need.

Thumbs Up
Pressing like was not enough.
We need more sensitivity in the world.
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cookiecutter




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 14 2015, 4:25 am
Metukah wrote:
I find this post offensive as well.

Using the phrase 'beggars can't be choosers' to describe an unfortunate soul who has to rely on others for sustenance is offensive imho.
We are also beggars. Whatever we have is from Hashem and none of us chose to be poor or rich or anywhere in the middle. It would do us well to realise that people asking us for Tzedakah are allowing us to fulfil a mitzvah and while we don't have to give more than we can and we can chose to give one over the other, and chose not to give someone we may feel is not genuine etc... It does not mean we have the right in any way to refer to someone in a derogatory way.
Metukah, I agree with everything you wrote and I think this post is the answer to OP as well. People whom we are able to assist offer us the chance to do a mitzvah and to reflect on how fortunate we are to be giving rather than needing assistance. Their reaction ideally should not affect whom we help but if it is inevitable that the recipient's mishegasim will be upsetting then OP can direct her largesse elsewhere.
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CPenzias




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 14 2015, 4:28 am
Metukah wrote:
I find this post offensive as well.

Using the phrase 'beggars can't be choosers' to describe an unfortunate soul who has to rely on others for sustenance is offensive imho.
We are also beggars. Whatever we have is from Hashem and none of us chose to be poor or rich or anywhere in the middle. It would do us well to realise that people asking us for Tzedakah are allowing us to fulfil a mitzvah and while we don't have to give more than we can and we can chose to give one over the other, and chose not to give someone we may feel is not genuine etc... It does not mean we have the right in any way to refer to someone in a derogatory way.


So you think it's ok for them to complain that they weren't given enough? This is where we will have to agree to disagree.
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amother
Beige


 

Post Sun, Jun 14 2015, 4:31 am
Marital peace at all costs.
We learn this from the Perasha of Sota
If H-Shem is willing to erase HIS NAME for marital peace than this shows us we must do the same.
Don't stop giving ma'aser, give it to someone else.
For the time being don't even discuss this lady with your DH.
Maybe, for the Chagim, and if your husband agrees, you can send her a food or clothes voucher from ma'aser money.
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cookiecutter




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 14 2015, 4:32 am
CPenzias wrote:
So you think it's ok for them to complain that they weren't given enough? This is where we will have to agree to disagree.
She didn't say that, which should be obvious. She said we should regard people with dignity even if they themselves seem undignified.
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amother
Vermilion


 

Post Sun, Jun 14 2015, 4:41 am
groovy1224 wrote:
Okay, here's what I would do. Speak to your husband, and see how strongly he objects to giving her charity money. If he's really really against it, I don't see any way around it.

If that is the case though, and even if not, maybe you can contribute in another way? If say, you were giving her $100 a month, can your maybe just shop at the grocery store for her while you do your own shopping, and have some staples delivered to the house? Just some bread, milk, eggs, pasta, etc so at least the children are not going hungry? This may be preferable anyway, since if she is dysfunctional, she may have problems managing money, so sending goods directly may circumvent that?

In the same vein, maybe you can give her your kids hand me downs, or clothes you/your kids don't want? If her kids are walking 2 miles to school because she can't afford a car, maybe help arrange a carpool?

Obviously, this all depends on how much you want to get involved. But those were just some different suggestions instead of just handing over some cash.

I feel like it's easy for people to say 'forget her, if she's going to be rude to you then wish her good riddance.' But its not that easy..It's not so simple to turn your back on people, especially children who live in poverty. You can't solve everyone's problems, but I don't blame you for wanting to try.


I will have to speak with DH about exactly how much I am helping her. It was easier before we were sharing our spending.

You are right that she is dysfunction about how she spends the cash, but I keep going back to how little choice she has and if indulging in little luxuries for her and her kids gives her pleasure then good for her. DH told me when I first started helping her that it is not my business what she does with the money. I gave her money for one thing and she spent it on something else. I was upset at first, but DH is right.

She has people helping with her bills. They pay her bills directly.

I prefer to give her money for taxis instead of driving her places. She doesn't have a car so getting places where there is no free bus is difficult. She actually prefers me to drive. I don't have the time to do this as much as she has the need.

You are right that it is so hard to turn my back on her. I feel that it must be difficult to have to ask for every little thing and have people judging you if you need what you are buying. I know I would be having anxiety attacks if I had my electric shut off or my furniture was falling apart. I can only imagine living in such grinding poverty.

BTW I give her hand me downs. I also give her gift cards and gift certificates I get as presents. I gave her a piece of silver I won in a raffle. I buy toys for the kids when I noticed they didn't have any and the neighbors kids weren't sharing nicely. I give her presents also for pick me ups, but I prefer cash so she has choices.

DH knows about the re gifts and he is fine. He knows about the things I buy. It is the amount of cash I don't tell him. You have good advice to speak with him. I think I am going to speak to my rabbi first so he can soften him up. Maybe my rabbi sees things like Fox.

Sorry for the ramble.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 14 2015, 4:45 am
OP you sound like a very caring person.

I agree that this is the kind of thing where it's good for both partners to be on the same page. Like previous posters I don't think it's wrong to give to someone critical of dh, but it's wrong to give to someone if you know your dh would want the maaser money to go elsewhere.

It sounds like in the past you told her it was your dh's decision not to give her more money? If so I think it'd be best not to give her so much information. Like, don't even say "I have to ask my husband," say "I have to check to see how much I can give right now." Otherwise it's almost inevitable that she'll have bad feelings, whether or not she should.
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amother
Vermilion


 

Post Sun, Jun 14 2015, 5:07 am
CPenzias wrote:
I would also only give through organizations. This sounds a bit shady where she can complain and belittle your husband. She made the choice in life to have a family. She made the choice in life to work at odd jobs (I'm assuming she doesn't have a college education)
it's not your job to pick up the pieces. Especially if she isn't being gracious. Ugh


She was married off young without a high school education. Her rov forbids birth control. She is fertile and usually is expecting with a baby already and another young child who gets home early. She didn't pick her husband who is not a provider. She didn't make these choices.

It is only my husband she insults usually although she disagrees with me about things. That's OK.
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amother
Vermilion


 

Post Sun, Jun 14 2015, 5:15 am
ora_43 wrote:
OP you sound like a very caring person.

I agree that this is the kind of thing where it's good for both partners to be on the same page. Like previous posters I don't think it's wrong to give to someone critical of dh, but it's wrong to give to someone if you know your dh would want the maaser money to go elsewhere.

It sounds like in the past you told her it was your dh's decision not to give her more money? If so I think it'd be best not to give her so much information. Like, don't even say "I have to ask my husband," say "I have to check to see how much I can give right now." Otherwise it's almost inevitable that she'll have bad feelings, whether or not she should.


Yes, but what do I day when I get back to her? When DH says no it is because she is asking for way too much at once.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 14 2015, 5:39 am
Talk to your rav to get halachic input about giving tzedaka your husband's not open to, and the situation in general.

There are so many different issues here:
- the fact that she's insulted your husband. Your shalom bayis is important. It sounds very holy to say, well I'll give to people who are critical of me and wonderful to people who do. But this is not you, it's your husband.
- some codependent thing going on. You feel really responsible for her. You can't change the world. I would say to try to come up with a set amount per month, figure out the best way to get it to her, and that's it.
- I'm a bit confused by is the money getting to her, not, all the ins and outs there. Also not how I'd want my tzedaka dollars to go.
I suspect these last two things are also fueling your husband's unease with the situation, and understandably so.

And, this is not your issue, but something some other people need to be schooled about:
Giving tzedaka is a big responsibility. Most of us have limited $$ to give and we want to give it most effectively. May everyone be on the giving end! But remember how you have to give. The recipient should NEVER be made to feel any less of a person. One must give graciously, with a smile and dignity. The ani is NOT a cheftza shel mitzvah, does not deserve a lecture or your disdain. Better not to give at all than to rub one's face in it in the giving.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 14 2015, 6:07 am
amother wrote:
Yes, but what do I day when I get back to her? When DH says no it is because she is asking for way too much at once.

Something like

(when she first asks) "I'll check to see how much we are able to help you with right now"

(getting back to her) "I won't be able to give you (amount she asked for) this month, but I can give (other amount)."

Nothing about it being your dh's decision or about your (subjective) view that she's asking for "too much." Just - you can't give what she's asking, but here's what you can give.
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