Luzer Twersky | Imamother

boymom

Wed, Jun 17 2015, 12:11 am

vintagebknyc wrote:

I think you're being disingenuous. I know a number of professionals who went to good colleges without having finished high school, I'm assuming that's the kind of person you're speaking of when you say you know doctors/lawyers/etc. who've become so without graduating from high school. this is a thing, people do it all the time.

but these people go to college, and one cannot go to college without being educated beforehand.

I think your trying to bring out a point but your not clear. first youre saying that you know people that went to college without hs diplmoma and then your last line says you cant go to college without education beforehand. Im not sure which argument your supporting. please edit your response.

im not saying that chassidish chedurim have a good education, nor am I saying that a better education isn't beneficial. but this isn't what makes it or breaks it . If your sitting in college for 6 years, whats another 6 months you spent catching up in the beginning?!

vintagebknyc

Wed, Jun 17 2015, 12:22 am

boymom wrote:

my point is that you can go to college without finishing high school, I know a number of people who have done it. but that these people were educated during k-12 so they were able to tackle a college curriculum.

one cannot go to med school or law school without going to college first, you seem to be saying this is possible. it's not.

I'm not sure which part isn't clear to you.

ally

Wed, Jun 17 2015, 1:27 am

This whole thread and its spin off is ridiculous.
Not giving your child a secular education or command of the local language is putting your child at a disadvantage. I cannot believe people are even debating this.
There is a reason that there are no special scholarships for white middle class males but plenty for students from rural communities, african americans etc...It means that an individual can overcome the challenges they were given but it is that much harder to do so. And a smaller percentage will succeed.

I work in an academic environment. One day, a workmate of mine, started to wax poetic about how wonderful he is for getting to where he is all by himself. His father is a Professor at an Ivy League. No, he didn't use his father's connections to get his current position. But 10/12 of my immediate colleagues have parents with at least one degree, the majority are Drs (both MD and PhD). This is not chance. And it is not because somehow, we are all so much smarter than everyone else. It is because education breeds education which breeds opportunity. It is universally recognized that if you are the first one starting on the education track you are going to have a hard time.

Is it surmountable?

For some people. Same as for business...I have relatives who are very successful without any higher education. It takes a very unique personality. As painful as it is to hear it, most of us are not that unique. Higher education is the best path that will ensure the average person can have a fulfilling and economically stable degree. I know, I know, everyone knows lawyers with $200K student debt and no job. It's not a guarantee - but statistically your chances of success are higher. Especially if you choose smartly and don't go into an oversaturated field.

ora_43

Wed, Jun 17 2015, 1:30 am

boymom wrote:

why are you attributing more education to more success?

Because personal experience and national surveys covering millions of people both tell me the two are correlated.

Quote:

think of all the jobs out there, and think whether to reach that position, if one requires a higher education in high school or if one can pursue a degree in that field after yeshivah?
think about it before answering. think of all the men you and your husband know and think whether they aren't successful because of lack of education.
I can think of a list of plenty chassidish yingerleit from the same yeshivah that luzer twersky learned in, that pursued degrees without high school education, ranging from: physical therapist, insurance broker, doctors pa, a couple of psychologists with proper degrees, special ed, speech, real estate lawyer, engineer- (he is Israeli and started american college barely speaking English), interior decorator, business management...the list goes on.
all this done without going to high school,

point is, if you WANT to , you can pursue the career of your dreams. and if you can't, instead of blaming your own poor brain, you bash your community.

Nearly all of those jobs do require higher education.

It sounds like by your definition, there's no such thing as a person being held back by a lack of education. Because even people with no education could, in theory, teach themselves everything they need to start college. I could pull my kids out of school and teach them nothing for the next 8-15 years, and they'd have nobody to blame but themselves if they weren't able to teach themselves everything from grammar to calculus to history once they hit adulthood.

If so, I think that's a bad definition.

(Would you use that definition for Torah studies, too? Like - if parents don't teach their son any gemara, they aren't holding him back, because he's free to teach himself later? I know people in top yeshivas who weren't taught any Torah as kids... )

Dolly1

Wed, Jun 17 2015, 2:35 am

There are a few things bothering me in his article, maybe somebody could shed some light:

Firstly, he doesnt mention whether he had any kids or not. He mentions leaving behind a wife but nothing about kids. If he never had any then that is one thing, but if he left them behind and avoids mentioning it then it seems like he is hiding something, is it guilt or something else...?

Secondly, he mentions that he is very happy now. He has no wife, no kids, no family and he is in the limelight now. I want him to come back and state how happy he is AFTER this stage of his life is over. It is easy to have friends when ur a star...

And last, quoting him; "I don't know what algebra is; I know I can Google it but I wasn't made to care enough to do so." THIS is what´s bothering me a lot! If u care enough to bash ur community for not teaching algebra then why didnt u care enough to find out what algebra was once u chose a different path?! It is easy to blame ur problems on the world but that is not a way of solving them. He says "I wasnt made to care enough to do so" that is a poor way of saying "I dont care!" but instead of blaming himself he is blaming everybody else!

I´m not trying to judge, these r just a few points that r bothering me...

Maya

Wed, Jun 17 2015, 4:39 am

dancingqueen wrote:

I don't buy that chassidish boys or anyone really, can catch up on over 10 years of full time education in 6 months. That just doesnt add up.
)

My husband is 30 years old. He runs a successful business, and he has a college degree. Yet he still calls me constantly to ask how to spell fairly simple words, or about rules of basic grammar. (His degree is in the math and sciences, and he's never had to do much writing in English for college.) he has to read books and watch documentaries on the basics in science that we learned by fifth grade in order to have knowledge of that. He's still missing large gaps of American and world history.

He's a very smart man, and it's taking him years and years to acquire the knowledge that everyone else learns in the first eighteen years of their lives. I can only imagine how difficult it must be for average men. And while I do know some Chassidish men who have vast knowledge of everything just because they are the type to devour any and all information that comes their way, they are exceptions and not the rule.

Half of these middle aged self made millionaires need their wives help in writing emails. What kind of success is that?

a jewish woman

Wed, Jun 17 2015, 6:32 am

vintagebknyc wrote:

Actually, I know some men who went to law school and at least one guy who got his Ph.D. without going to college. They are able to do so by getting something called a BTL (bachelor's in Talmudic Law) from their yeshiva and that is the equivalent of a bachelor's degree. So I guess it's possible to go to law school or graduate school without a proper secular education.

octopus

Wed, Jun 17 2015, 7:05 am

a jewish woman wrote:

hahahaha. I'm from the "yeshivish world." Many of the yeshivas REFUSE to give the BTL. They don't want to give it. So good luck getting that! And the ones that do give it, rarely give it, and they certainly don't advertise that they once upon a time did....believe me...my mom looked into it when my bros were in the parsha, and she came upon many an interesting brick wall.

a jewish woman

Wed, Jun 17 2015, 7:05 am

dancingqueen wrote:

I don't buy that chassidish boys or anyone really, can catch up on over 10 years of full time education in 6 months. That just doesnt add up.

(Are there really chaddidish male pts? I can see them having a few issues with that program)

I have been told that there are multiple Hasidic or rather ex-chasidish men who are quite successful in college. One is the famous Naftuli Moster who started Yaffed. I believe he recently graduated from social work graduate school. Another one is a Fulbright scholar. And yet another one actually teaches sciences classes at Cuny. So yes, it's possible to "catch up" as an adult but I doubt its easy. And I doubt it takes 6 months but they can def graduate college in 4 years just like everyone else. The men are also used to learning and studying. In fact, they have a longer day in yeshiva than in college so they are disciplined to study hard which is a major advantage and set helps with the "catching up" process.

a jewish woman

Wed, Jun 17 2015, 7:26 am

Maya wrote:

I don't disagree with you but I want to point out that your husband has a business while you don't. In the chasidishe world, it's more common for the men to start businesses. That is despite their lack of education and despite the fact that women are (supposedly) better educated. So the system is set up that any chasidishe man who wants to start his own business can do so. And be successful at it with hard work. And I know plenty of chasidishe men who take advantage of it and are a success. So in a way, it's really the women who are at a disadvantage when it comes to making money and starting businesses since they are more limited than the men. So what good is a "better" education if the system is skewed in favor of the men anyway?

Maya

Wed, Jun 17 2015, 7:32 am

a jewish woman wrote:

I don't have a business because I'm not a good business owner, not because I didn't have the opportunity.

I know a lot of successful Chassidish female business owners. You'd be surprised at how many there are.

Not everyone can be a business owner. In fact, most people are NOT cut out for it, and these are the people for whom an education would come in handy when looking for a job. We always need to look at the big picture, the majority, not the small minority who succeeded in business.

33055

Wed, Jun 17 2015, 8:20 am

a jewish woman wrote:

This only works well as long as other Jews are willing to pay the tax to deal with Jewish owned businesses. There are so many businesses that hire non Jewish businesses and add no value but charge a premium. I am not talking about hiring Spanish workers and managing the job. I am talking about hiring a another Jew to hire the entire company and charge a 40% premium.

Last week a man was upset because we are able to buy a certain product and the installation of it at half price by going direct. We saved $6000. This man is busy and he afraid that people will figure out they can pay $6000 instead of $12,000 by going direct. He was yelling at DH for not supporting a yid.

The interesting thing is that a few people heard the man and now want to buy direct themselves.

The real businessmen already will bypass Jewish owned businesses that don't add value. The really wealthy ones I know will do a token amount with Yids for show and tell purposes. The rest of the population will probably catch on when financial pressures force them to do so.

When people patronize a business that charges a premium and doesn't add value then they should at least count it towards maaser.

glamourmom

Wed, Jun 17 2015, 1:22 pm

fmt4 wrote:

Are you seriously blaming little boys for how they treat their English teachers?? It is completely the fault of their parents and the system that instill in them the belief that English subjects are at best pointless and stupid and at worst dangerous and evil. Of course they're going to act that way.

I have yet to hear a chasidish parent (I am chasidish with an extended chasidish family) belittle the importance of learning secular subjects or taking it seriously.

Maya

Wed, Jun 17 2015, 2:18 pm

glamourmom wrote:

I have yet to hear a chasidish parent (I am chasidish with an extended chasidish family) belittle the importance of learning secular subjects or taking it seriously.

Perhaps the average parent of today takes it seriously, but this is still a holdover from the previous generation, and is definitely still an attitude among the more frum parents.

I know that in the local Chassidishe schools, the trend now is to hire Chassidishe melamdim to replace the "modern" guys that used to teach English studies to the boys. Those "modern" guys were ineffective because the boys were not according them any respect and would act out terribly, whereas the Chassidish men have more control of the classroom because the boys behave better.

33055

Wed, Jun 17 2015, 2:20 pm

glamourmom wrote:

I have yet to hear a chasidish parent (I am chasidish with an extended chasidish family) belittle the importance of learning secular subjects or taking it seriously.

My close friends and I agree to disagree about education. My friends think I am misguided and secretly probably think I am nuts. I also secretly think they are nuts. How do you cripple your children?

questioner

Wed, Jun 17 2015, 2:57 pm

octopus wrote:

To the best of my (limited) knowledge many / most yeshivos give a BTL. They may or may not tell the boys about it (and most do), but they want to be accredited as colleges to get access to Federal financial aid.

I do know many people who continued on to masters programs using their BTL.