Painful--Sister Leaving Tznious

amother

Bronze

Mon, Jun 22 2015, 9:20 am

My family is yeshivish, we are healthy, normal, good people who had a good education and a happy upbringing. My sister always struggled with boyfriends/tznious[mostly just tightness and style based] . She married her boyfriend. They are internally yeshivish. They believe in Hashem, Torah, and mitzvos. Externally...each time I see them it is worse and worse. First it was her knees, then it was her neckline. then her elbows, and now she mostly doesn't cover her hair. I asked her about it, and she says she feels tremendously guilty about it and she knows it is not right, but she can't fight against the desire to look good, whatever that means to her. She happens to be a beautiful girl. She has a gorgous long blonde shaitle, she has an amazing body and beautiful features. Why does a person like this need MORE to look good? I can't understand how a person can have such a low-self-esteem that they have to flaunt their bodies to this extent and go against the things they believe in. What makes her like she is, and me like I am? I just want to shake her up and yell, "STOP, it's enough already, just shape up!" Of course, I just smile and accept her and try to encourage her by saying things like "well its good that at least you dress classy, and not trashy." What can I do? It hurts me so much to watch her do this! I am also embarrassed for her to be around my husband/community/kids. Maybe this is my own gaivah, but...its gross! Today I made her change her outfit because she was wearing short sleeves, her hair uncovered, and a mini skirt, and planning to go to an all charedi restaurant. I asked her if she was offended that I asked, and she said "no, I am used to it from our mom. I don't want you to be embarrassed. But I don't think I have anything much better than this." In the end, she changed into a floor length wild patterend, tight dress with two huge slits till above her knee, with her hair the same. I thanked her so much. Truthfully, it was much better, but she still stuck out like a sore thumb in the restaurant. She says, "I believe in tznious, but not the details--like knees, elbows ect. I think you just shouldnt wear slutty clothes." Oy yoy YOY! It kills me.

amother

Peach

Mon, Jun 22 2015, 9:38 am

I'm going to be anon here so as an introduction, I'm yeshivish, my DH is in Kollel and we are married for more than 15 years. I dress with tznius standards but like to look good within yeshivish tznius parameters (not ALL BLACK).

You ask why a girl who is already beautiful wants to look what to her is even MORE beautiful? Simple. Her self-esteem is likely tied into how beautiful she looks/feels, so the more she looks (what to her is) beautiful, the better she feels about herself. Beauty may be her strong point, it makes her feel validated. (Everyone has a strong point. Maybe yours is being yeshivish. Maybe it's brains - being smart. To her it's being beautiful.)

It's a really tough world out there, and so much media, pictures, facebook (never been on facebook myself but very aware of it). The projection of what is beautiful today is not in sync with tznius at all. So the nisayon is HUGE.

What makes you you and her her? Hashem. He gave each of you a totally different personality. You cannot understand her because you don't have her struggles, you don't have her needs, you are not her.

It sounds like she is a married woman (the bits about hair covering). Based on that, I will say: This is between herself and her husband and Hashem. Certainly not between her and her sister.

DH's sister has changed re:tznius after getting divorced, and personally, the only time dress mode came up was by a Simcha that was taking place in a shul. I would never tell her how to dress, and I only suggested something, very gently, because of Kovod Bais HaKnesses (and she accepted my suggestion at the time. I wouldn't have made it an issue - just a very gentle suggestion and she agreed.) For a restaurant, I don't get involved at all. This is not about me and about my feelings. I am very careful if I EVER say anything, and she knows this. That's why we respect each other.

You need to work on your feelings (whatever they stem from) because pushing tznius on her isn't going to cause her any growth - it will just alienate her. She needs to work this out herself, and it's a real battle for her, obviously.

It's probably better not to make comments to her, especially not comments that are degrading. Saying a qualified comment is insulting

eg. just say "that looks classy"
not "at least is' classy"

If you are supportive so she feels good about herself, she is likely to want to be MORE tznius. It's when she feels put down that her self-esteem plummets...that's when she needs to raise her self-esteem by looking beautiful, and that's where her struggles kick in MORE, and it can be too difficult to overcome.

amother

Copper

Mon, Jun 22 2015, 9:53 am

I don't know if this is helpful or not, lol, but just a note. I had a friend that got married and I saw her tznius go downhill. It was so sad. She was a frum bais Yaakov girl and all of the sudden her clothes became tighter and tighter and her skirts just just covered her knees. When I brought it up with another close friend of hers, she told me that she is actually miserable about it but this is what her husband wants and she has to adhere for shalom bayis reasons. If her husband needs her to look this way, she tries to remain within the guidelines but much less stringent than she herself would be in order so that he does not look elsewhere or not feel attracted to her. Just a thought.

peanutsmom

Mon, Jun 22 2015, 10:15 am

I think you have a right to be sad. It is sad that your sister isn't keeping something that you hold is important. Once you acknowledge your sadness etc.-then you have to decide based upon the actual relationship with her RIGHT NOW (not your relationship from a while ago-or before she got married)-what your place is-and if you could say s/t. If you are very close-and she does value what you say-then maybe figure s/t out that can help her-build up her self image so she doesn't need the outside as much-or maybe show her how she can look really good without bending the laws-thins like this. But again this is for you to decide. If you are not as close to her-then just daven for her. Then you will be doing something with your sadness. HUGS

PinkFridge

Mon, Jun 22 2015, 10:20 am

And not only should you try not to internalize it, and let it feel it's a reflection on you, since you say she has hashkafos you respect, endorse her and her husband for their good decisions. You may have no idea (or actually, maybe you do) how hard it is for them to make the good decisions they do.
If she ever brings tznius up, you can smile wryly and say, you really don't know what I think? And then come up with some good IRL people or other sources like Wendy Shalit for her to explore, on her own.

ETA: I'm not saying that you'll never be able to discuss tznius, just that it might come after cementing your relationship.

Last edited by PinkFridge on Mon, Jun 22 2015, 10:27 am; edited 1 time in total

Laiya

Mon, Jun 22 2015, 10:24 am

OP, it's nice that you are concerned for your sister's spiritual well-being, but please ask yourself whether your own personal feelings of embarrassment are playing a role here. Honestly, when I read that you were going into a chareidi RESTAURANT, I was surprised. A restaurant is a public place. Who cares what the other patrons think?? (I was expecting you to write that you were going to a family member's simcha or something, in which inappropriate attire could be construed as offensive.)

Please, don't be embarrassed of your sister, no matter how she dresses, as this will definitely harm your relationship. Focus on the beautiful person she is, inside and out, and how lucky you are to have her for a sister.

imasinger

Mon, Jun 22 2015, 11:25 am

Your sister will not change her usual way of dressing to your liking if you make any comments at all, positive or negative. That is because the issue is already too highly charged.

If you truly can't stand the embarrassment (or it is truly a problem for your DH to be around her), then you might either buy for her or help her buy one outfit that will be for the times when you want to request her to fit in with your crowd. Or, if she is a similar size, maybe you could lend her some of your things. Tell her that it's her yeshivish "purim costume". Smile

As for the rest of it, leave the topic alone. You are traversing a land mine area, and might risk pushing her further from where you would like her to be.

amother

Papaya

Mon, Jun 22 2015, 4:15 pm

Oyy I think some of the ladies here need to chill and take it down a notch. It's so easy to point to the op and blame instead of trying to understand and show sympathy.

Op- I'm really truly sorry to hear about your sister. It's really so sad that yet another tznuit beauty is struggling this way. And if she's seriously starting to distract men with her look then all the more so! I really pray that she finds the strength she needs to overcome this battle. I guess that's also the best thing you could do at this point, especially if she doesn't want to explain her reason to you fully.

Good luck!

Dolly Welsh

Mon, Jun 22 2015, 4:50 pm

She is wearing slutty clothes.

This is her.

She has it and she likes to flaunt it. Maybe that's natural. But what's natural isn't always terribly considerate.

You have that kind of sister. Inconsiderate. A "self" person. Oh well. She does seem to like and listen to you, she's just not very other-aware.

I don't think there is anything to do with this situation.

THIS is why people get all violent, mean, cruel, and judgmental: because some people only understand force. When you are nice and don't inflict major pain on them such as banishment or starvation, they do what they want. Why? Because they want to. We all know what it feels like to want something. Most of us want things that are within a considerate framework, but not everybody understands that part.

It may be genetic.

You have the sister you have.

It probably goes back to when she was a gorgeous, really gorgeous little girl and people with poor judgment ranted and raved about her beauty and she took that inside. It went on when in school and maybe even at home she could do no wrong because of her great beauty. Or was always punished just a little less than the others.

Not being stupid she figured it out. The world does not inflict its rules on her in the same way as on others.

So they made her who she is.

You will only get results if you get very stern and you may not want to. I mean, just for going out with YOU. If it doesn't suit YOU to sit next to a spectacle or an oddball in a public place, you may be able to get her to look normal just for those occasions, not the rest of her life.

The other women in that restaurant, who just wanted an intimate pleasant time with their HUSBANDS which they WORKED FOR ALL WEEK hated her guts. Because their husbands' eyes undoubtedly strayed a bit toward your sister's beauty. Hey. It's real. Your sister is gorgeous.

Nobody likes competition.

Other people's anger is not unheard in Shemayim. Your sister should be warned she is stealing from others (their pleasant evening was stolen) and that isn't ok.

But I have little hope you can get through to her. She was brought up that way.

BY YOUR PARENTS.

vintagebknyc

Mon, Jun 22 2015, 4:53 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

dolly,
what is wrong with you? seriously, I'm curious. you post these missives that are all over the map, they all contradict each other and most are inane (the only thing your numerous posts have in common is a: length, b: the author. you'd make a lousy troll.)

I want to know why you feel it's acceptable to write the horrid things that you do.

Dolly Welsh

Mon, Jun 22 2015, 5:04 pm

Are you referring to my lack of love for tight waistlines? I don't mind waistlines. I just hate my own. It's too high up. I made that clear later. I think all frum wedding gowns are great; I just think it should be easier to get or make one.

Yes, sometimes I am right-ish and other times loosey-goosey left-ish, because I'm from the secular world. I am not a Beis Yakov girl. I only went BT in middle age.

My opinions aren't inside any one box; I make up my mind, one issue at a time, on the merits of that one particular issue. I don't follow party lines. So what? Aren't you supposed to use your brains as best you can on all occasions? Anyway, that's my background.

I am not advocating being mean to anybody.

I can't help noticing that this particular OP does not get very far - maybe a few inches - by being nice. Her sister insists on a showy image she knows will be strongly atypical for the setting.

Even in a secular restaurant there is a way to look very nice without burning the house down. It IS a public place. Other people HAVE also paid for intimate dinners too, not just you. Truly smoking outfits should be for private spaces, in my opinion.

But my posts are too long. I will try harder.