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Painful--Sister Leaving Tznious
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MagentaYenta




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2015, 7:35 pm
vintagebknyc wrote:
I thought magenta and I were about the same age, I'm 50. I thought dolly was older, and sequioa @ 45


I just turned 64.
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naturalmom5




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2015, 7:36 pm
Dolly Welsh wrote:
"Slutty" was the sister's own word. She wore a loud, clinging dress with slits to a black hat restaurant.

Nu? Yeah. Slutty. Mean, too.

She could have obliged her sister, the OP.

I am almost always on the side of the OP. The OP is in such pain she is typing Oy oy oy. She is screaming. I wouldn't do that to a sister. Would you?

I am not saying this sister is an evil person. She is a bumptious one who could learn to be considerate. Yes, she is probably young. This is what it's LIKE when you are young. But when you have a sister telling you in plain English you are hurting her, maybe you should get a grip and pull your black linen blazer out of the back of the closet for this one occasion, and throw it over your clingy outfit. To be nice.

There is a time and place. She should have some "going out with my traditionalist sister" clothes.


Dolly you're one of my favorite posters but I'm close to your age so I can say this

There is a saying in yiddish. " a gvorniner is erger vi a gboriner"

It means someone who joins is worse than some born into it

When you use your own innate common sense you are always on the money

When you try too hard to preach the gospel you end sounding more self righteous than the good little by girls who come by it honestly

All OP is going to accomplish is push her sister further away from yiddishkeit
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2015, 7:41 pm
Dolly Welsh wrote:
"Slutty" was the sister's own word. She wore a loud, clinging dress with slits to a black hat restaurant.

Nu? Yeah. Slutty. Mean, too.

She could have obliged her sister, the OP.

I am almost always on the side of the OP. The OP is in such pain she is typing Oy oy oy. She is screaming. I wouldn't do that to a sister. Would you?

I am not saying this sister is an evil person. She is a bumptious one who could learn to be considerate. Yes, she is probably young. This is what it's LIKE when you are young. But when you have a sister telling you in plain English you are hurting her, maybe you should get a grip and pull your black linen blazer out of the back of the closet for this one occasion, and throw it over your clingy outfit. To be nice.

There is a time and place. She should have some "going out with my traditionalist sister" clothes.


Yeah, you're right. Having your sister telling you -- whether or not in so many words, but certainly telling all of us -- that you look like you give BJs and has intercourse with men for money (because that is what SLUT means) -- because she wears short sleeves -- SHORT SLEEVES, GUYS -- and doesn't always cover her hair fully isn't inconsiderate. No no no. That's being a good Jew. Because good Jews call their sisters sluts. And tell them "well, at least you're not dressed trashy."

So much for all the people pretending that its okay not to wear the uniform when you go for a visit. Because even your own sister will call you a 'ho.

Sorry for the poor writing. My style goes downhill when I'm incensed by people who think its okay to be nasty and cruel to people, and defend themselves in the name of Judaism.
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b from nj




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2015, 7:50 pm
OPs sister is a grown woman even if she is young & she has the right to dress however she pleases & does not have to worry about her older frummer sister who has different ideas & concerns about tznius than she does. She also does not have to worry that she is turning on OPs DH & all of the other husbands who were trying to eat their meals in the "Chareidi" or "black hat" restaurant whatever the heck that is supposed to mean. I get the point but restaurants are open to the public & all the customers' money are just as green as everyone else's no matter how they are dressed.

OP, even though I try really hard to empathize with OPs in general when they post, in this case I must respectfully say MYOB!!!! She is not your daughter & even if she was, she is her own person with her own ideas & perhaps she wants to live her life somewhat differently than the rest of your family & you know what? You are gonna have to deal with it or risk losing the sisterly relationship you have with her. Bottom line, you can't control her at this point in her life & it's not fair of you to try to.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2015, 7:51 pm
I'm 30.

As Dolly refuses to divulge her age, we must assume that Magenta is the oldest and therefore the wisest Smile

Dolly, I think you're nitpicking on small little things, but even you deep down know that it's nonsense. If your night is ruined because someone else looked pretty... then the problem is with you. And where does it end? I don't own any frum-length skirts; when I go to my yeshivish neighbors' houses I have the choice of short or long skirts. (Or pants Smile) I typically wear long skirts, but I bet some of them are thinking, why is she dressed like that, why is she standing out.

We can't all be the same, and we should direct our energies to those matters that harm others. Not things like short sleeves.
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2015, 7:53 pm
sequoia wrote:
I'm 30.

As Dolly refuses to divulge her age, we must assume that Magenta is the oldest and therefore the wisest Smile

Dolly, I think you're nitpicking on small little things, but even you deep down know that it's nonsense. If your night is ruined because someone else looked pretty... then the problem is with you. And where does it end? I don't own any frum-length skirts; when I go to my yeshivish neighbors' houses I have the choice of short or long skirts. (Or pants Smile) I typically wear long skirts, but I bet some of them are thinking, why is she dressed like that, why is she standing out.

We can't all be the same, and we should direct our energies to those matters that harm others. Not things like short sleeves.


My guess is that Dolly is actually younger than you, but who knows.

You, however, are wise beyond your years.

As is Magenta.
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dancingqueen




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2015, 8:19 pm
sequoia wrote:
Because Dolly is certain that her age shelters her from criticism.

Curiously enough, other respectable-age posters do not feel this way.


I disagree I actually find dolly to be very graceful in the face of a lot of flak that she gets for her opinions.

That said, I completely disagree with her post except that she is probably right that praising a child too much for looks isn't great parenting. Otherwise, op painted a picture of a very sweet and accommodating sister who changed her clothes Bc op asked her too. Wow! So she doesn't dress to chareidi standards. But the truth is that we all know a woman can look s-xy even dressing to chareidi standards. The Frum world had to stop being so scared of that.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2015, 8:22 pm
amother wrote:
Please tell your friend that this rarely works. If he doesn't love her the way he married her (more or less) he is chasing a fantasy. A fantasy that isn't about her, really.

My heart goes out to these bnos yisroel who are taught to destroy themselves to be a true aishes chayil, to a man who clearly doesn't deserve one.


I've read a lot of those kinds of posts, of girls who start dressing poorly because of their husbands. But this wasn't the case. We have two probably pretty good kids who are finding themselves together. I really don't think this applies here.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2015, 8:27 pm
sequoia wrote:
I'm 30.

As Dolly refuses to divulge her age, we must assume that Magenta is the oldest and therefore the wisest Smile

Dolly, I think you're nitpicking on small little things, but even you deep down know that it's nonsense. If your night is ruined because someone else looked pretty... then the problem is with you. And where does it end? I don't own any frum-length skirts; when I go to my yeshivish neighbors' houses I have the choice of short or long skirts. (Or pants Smile) I typically wear long skirts, but I bet some of them are thinking, why is she dressed like that, why is she standing out.

We can't all be the same, and we should direct our energies to those matters that harm others. Not things like short sleeves.


I love that phrase. Because by your definition I don't own too many frum length skirts myself. In fact, I just combined a coupon with clearance sales at Dress Barn and bought a few maxi Shabbos skirts Very Happy
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imasinger




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2015, 8:58 pm
With regard to praise and its effect on attention to appearance, and also age, the following true story comes to mind.

Once, about 25 years ago (before I became BT), I was second-in-command at an event where several board members were invited to sit in front of the "audience" at an event. The representative that night was a new member of the board, and this was her first time sitting up there. She was about 25 years older than me (about the same age I am now). She asked me what she had to do during the event. Quoting the first-in-command, who often gave this response to either gender, I said, "Nothing; you just get to sit there and look beautiful."

Afterwards, she took me aside and expressed her anger. Apparently, all her life, she had been told how pretty she was, but felt that nobody ever credited her brains. She really resented my comment.

In the moment, I just apologized, but inside, I had to laugh. To me, she was someone my mom's age, and it never would have occurred to me that she took the remark at its face value! I probably would have described her as "well preserved."

And, now that I'm about her age, I find it even funnier.

The point is, nobody knows what buttons will necessarily push a person in one direction or another.

But (and this is more to Dolly than to the OP), my own hunch is that telling a child how beautiful they are does not lead to a tendency to flaunt oneself. No, more likely it is a result of messages of inadequacy in some area.

I write long posts, too. Hope the length is not offending anyone.
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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2015, 9:44 pm
I'm older than Magenta.

The sister wore a slinky loud colored dress with high slits, says OP in her original post. That's going a lot further than a short sleeved blouse and a skirt slightly above the knee.

Her original outfit was a mini skirt - going out with FAMILY to a haredi restaurant. Not very kind.

A "slut" (her word) is a woman who behaves in a socially destructive way, using sx. You can do that without touching anybody.

Nobody said this sister is a sx worker having physical contact with men.

My ideas about modesty are not part of my BT experience at all. My secular mother taught them to me.

This sister does not want to blend into the anonymous crowd. Oh well. If that's how she feels, she's going to do that.

There is a lot more to this story than OP is saying; OP wishes her sister would be more considerate, and more (for her family and community) normal. Well the sister doesn't want to be those things. WHY she doesn't is interesting, but we don't know. OP hasn't said.

As mentioned upthread, sometimes it's the husband. Again, not kind. He knew what he was getting. Why does a man get to change a woman? Such a man's need to show off to other men should not be made his wife's problem. That's why strict rules could support a woman in that position. She can dress quietly by invoking the rules. In private, he can see her dressed another way, but no, his male friends won't get to admire and envy.
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causemommysaid




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 23 2015, 12:01 am
PinkFridge wrote:
To be dlkz, how do we know she was gossiping, and not trying to get some insight from someone who knows her sister well and might well be presumed to be discreet and even helpful? I can't take the leap that you and evidently at least 9 other people did.


check the color system

The person I quoted was not the OP. It was some woman who said she was talking to her friend about another friend's level of tznius and wondering what happened.

now dont get me wrong- I am no tzadekes. I love good gossip but I think its hypocritical to gossip about others under the guise of piety. Just call a spade a spade. No one was taking about it to gain a greater understanding and to come to a common goal. It was curiosity and plain old "gimme the dirt" on Shprintzy's new look.
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heidi




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 23 2015, 12:10 am
Two things:
OP, mind your own business. If you are too immersed in fear of what other's make think of you, don't go out to charedi restaurants with your sister (what is a charedi restaurant anyway? Does the hamburger come with a little black hat?)
Second of all, I have a dear dear friend who wears short sleeves and doesn't cover her hair. She is not rebelling against anything. It is the way she and her husband were raised, before the frum world went to the right.
This woman davens three times a day and is boring to be with bcz. she will NEVER speak a word of what may be construed as lashon hara. She also organizes and gives shiurim. You have no idea what schar is given for what actions and everyone knows that covering her is at most d'rabbanan-- so go know.
Sorry, I think I only have one thing to say-- MYOB!!!
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 23 2015, 12:19 am
MagentaYenta wrote:
I just turned 64.


I just turned 50 on June 8th. When is your b-day?

---------------------------------

As for Dolly, it's fine to disagree, but there's no need for people to be nasty about it. I'm the one who flagged the original personal attack.
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MagentaYenta




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 23 2015, 12:24 am
FranticFrummie wrote:
I just turned 50 on June 8th. When is your b-day?

---------------------------------

As for Dolly, it's fine to disagree, but there's no need for people to be nasty about it. I'm the one who flagged the original personal attack.


Over Memorial Day weekend.
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black sheep




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 23 2015, 12:30 am
All this talk about the hurt OP is experiencing, doesn't make sense to me. Nobody should be hurt by what someone else wears.
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 23 2015, 1:07 am
Oh for the love of....
Just mind your own business, let her wear what she wears and don't comment.

She may be your sister but she isn't your doll so you don't get to dress her.

Neither does your mother.

Keep your opinions inside.
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amother
Aubergine


 

Post Tue, Jun 23 2015, 1:48 am
PinkFridge wrote:
I've read a lot of those kinds of posts, of girls who start dressing poorly because of their husbands. But this wasn't the case. We have two probably pretty good kids who are finding themselves together. I really don't think this applies here.


Are you referring to OP? Because I wasn't.
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someoneelse




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 23 2015, 2:59 am
vintagebknyc wrote:
dolly,
what is wrong with you? seriously, I'm curious. you post these missives that are all over the map, they all contradict each other and most are inane (the only thing your numerous posts have in common is a: length, b: the author. you'd make a lousy troll.)

I want to know why you feel it's acceptable to write the horrid things that you do.


I think this post is nasty.
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Iymnok




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 23 2015, 3:05 am
FranticFrummie wrote:
I just turned 50 on June 8th. When is your b-day?

---------------------------------

As for Dolly, it's fine to disagree, but there's no need for people to be nasty about it. I'm the one who flagged the original personal attack.
woo hoo! You get senior discounts now, right?
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