Home
Log in / Sign Up
    Private Messages   Advanced Search   Rules   New User Guide   FAQ   Advertise   Contact Us  
Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
She doesn't like being told to do something
1  2  Next



Post new topic   Reply to topic View latest: 24h 48h 72h

amother
Powderblue


 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2015, 7:02 am
So my 5 year old DD has never liked being given a direct request to do something. Anything from "please wipe your nose" to "please pick up the coat you threw on the floor" is usually met with a "I don't want to" or "I'm too tired" or "maybe later" or "you do it."

Pushing the issue by repeating the request makes her more and more upset.

She sometimes responds to requests framed as games, like "who can pick up the most Lego pieces?" Or cooperates if I help her like "I'll put away my coat if you put away my shoes." Or of course if I bribe her or threaten a consequence.

She'll turn anything into a negotiation. I thought maybe it's just a stage but now I'm thinking it's her personality. My 2 year old is totally different. She responds to requests with a sweet "okay!" The same requests that would make my older DD throw a tantrum at that age. I'm not talking major stuff here. Just stuff like "here's a tissue please wipe your nose."

DH and I are tired of negotiating, coercing, bribing and forcing my older DD to listen to us when we ask her to do simple things.

Ok, so her personality doesn't react well to direct orders. I don't like them either to be honest so I can see where she gets it from. How can I phrase requests so that she wants to listen? So that she sees the value in listening?

She's really a good obedient child aside from this. Very polite, says please and thank you. She's very loving and kind with her younger sister. I'm sure there's a simple answer for how DH and I should talk to her so I need advice. Does anyone know or can you recommend a parenting book that addresses this issue?
Back to top

Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2015, 8:01 am
There are a variety of underlying reasons for a child to routinely oppose parents or adults in authority, and it's hard to "diagnose" your DD's specific issue without knowing her and seeing her in action.

I can give you my experience, though, in case it's helpful.

I have a now-adult(ish) DD who had a very keen sense of her own dignity from the delivery room forward. It took three nurses to clean her up, and I vividly remember looking over, watching this 9-lb. dynamo use every weapon at her disposal to fight them off.

It became rapidly apparent that she *hated* being a child. She hated people who talked down to her or addressed her in a high-pitched, sing-song voice. She hated being herded around with all the other children at school. She hated being ordered around in ways that called attention to her lack of status.

Truthfully, I could emphathize somewhat. I'd had lots of similar feelings as a child, but my reactions weren't quite so dramatic!

My approach with my DD was simple: she wanted more status, so I gave it to her. I basically pretended that she was a co-worker in a subordinate but respected professional position.

Just as I would be careful in the way I gave orders to a such a co-worker, I was careful how I phrased things to DD. Rather than, "Please pick up your coat," I might say, "Oh, let's tidy up a little before dinner. Maybe you could pick up your coat and make sure everyone put his backpack away."

As she got older, I put her in charge of various projects or tasks. She didn't want to be micro-managed, and that was fine with me. Oh, sure, there were occasional missteps or minor disasters, but there were far fewer than you might think, and DD usually learned a great deal.

Let me add that a lot of people (including most teachers) disagree with this kind of parenting. They mistakenly interpret it as placating the child, pandering to the child, or abdicating authority.

Well, phooey on them. If someone's authority is based solely on getting smaller people to immediately do her bidding, she's going to be in for a big surprise when those small people grow up. And then she'll be whining on Imamother that her adult children don't respect her opinions or ask for her advice.

My DD now works in early childhood education, and she's phenomenally successful in handling kids who've earned community-wide reputations as terrors simply by treating them the way *she* wanted to be treated at the same age.

She recently told me about one little boy who threw a major tantrum, screaming that he wanted to go home. Rather than trying to coax him into a good mood, she crossed her arms and said, "Yeah, me too. But we're not going home for another few hours, so I guess we'll both just have to deal with it."

She then walked away. The boy sniffled a minute or two, dusted himself off, and joined the group.
Back to top

acccdac




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2015, 9:15 am
I give choices with a default choice.

It sounds something like this, all very calm, matter of factly

"You can clean up the toys or set the table for dinner"
"I dont want to"
"That fine you have about another 10 seconds to make the choice or you can earn a consequence"

(for her a consequence is not being allowed in public areas of the house, she despises that)

When she doesn't choose one, I take her by the hand or pick her up, and bring her to her room and say
"you are not in a time out, when you've made up your mind you can come out and do the task that is not done (I.e. the toys). Also I just want to remind you that in the house dinner is served from 6:00-6:30 and then the restaurant is closed."

Possible outcomes:
1) she stays in her room all night and doesnt come out.
2) she comes out of her room after dinner, there is crying and screaming that night and guilt tripping on how she is STARVING!!!
3) she comes out and cleans the toys and then gobbles down her dinner because she heard the 5 minute warning of kitchen being closed
4) She comes out after 5-10 min and cleans the toys
5) She comes out within 5 min and chooses her task
Back to top

amother
Powderblue


 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2015, 9:27 am
Fox I do that sometimes. Instead of saying "wipe your nose" I say "I notice your nose is running. Isn't it great that there's a tissue box near you?" Doesn't seem that effective.

I try to make her laugh. At bedtime I resist reminding her to put on her pajamas, because of course she already knows. So I say something like "hey why aren't you wearing your bathing suit yet? Don't you know you need a bathing suit for bed?"

However, while I might have patience to talk like this 75% of the time, DH only has patience to talk like this 15% of the time.

She frequently complains I have too many rules and I'm too bossy. I went through all my rules and pointed out they are all meant to keep her or other people healthy, happy and safe, and I have no rules that make her do something for no reason.

She is whip-smart bh and the oldest child so those factors probably combined to form her personality of wanting to be one of the adults, like you say.

I've noticed she doesn't like abrupt changes or being rushed so maybe that has something to do with it? Should I say "I need your coat in the closet, you can do it later if you're too tired now" and then remind her later? Would that work?

Thanks accdac but I'm not looking to give her consequences, I use those when I'm low on patience but on the whole I don't think they are long-term effective. (Plus she starts saying them back to me LOL! "Mommy if you don't get me a fruit I'm not going to let you play with the doll.")
Back to top

smss




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2015, 9:40 am
Fox, I loved your post.

OP, read Hold on to Your Kids by Gordon Neufeld, especially the chapter on counterwill.
Back to top

PassionFruit




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2015, 9:51 am
OK, I have a kid like this. When someone responds emotionally to something you didn't mean as anything charged, it is time to step back and figure out what the background is. [screaming NO to "can you pick up your toys"] There is a technique from The Explosive Child [great book, get it] that we have been using and it is working wonders. The basic premise is: when you are in a calm time, sit next to the kid and say, "I've noticed that it is hard for you when I say to do something [or do something, or hard for you to be nice to your sister etc]...whats up?" You wait to hear what they say. They might say, "I hate listening to you." Now you ask questions, "why? what about it? is it the word no or is it something else" Really try to understand the child. The kid might say back, "I don't want to listen because I want to be in charge, not you!" You repeat back what she says. "Oh, so when I tell you know, you feel like I am in charge and you feel like you have no say?" You get a conformation or a clarification. Now you tell her the problem: "well, sweetie, I am not sure what to do about this. There is a problem." Kid: "what?" You, "well, I understand that you want to be in charge of yourself, but sometimes there are things that need to be done, and you need to learn how to do them. Do you understand that problem." Kid thinks..."yes". You [clarifying the goal]: "maybe we can come up with a solution to how you can feel in charge, but we still get the things done that need to be done." At this point, maybe the kid can think of an idea--or maybe not. It is better if they come up with the idea. If necessary, you can throw out an idea. "Hey, how 'bout, we make a chart of the things you need to do every day, and I won't tell you to do them, you will just remember cuz you will see the chart?" Lets say kid like this idea. You can now say, "I am just concerned because it could be that there will be things I need to remind you about that we forget to put on the chart." Kid's face falls, then lights up again, "you know mom, if almost all the time I am in charge of remembering to do what I have to do, I think it will be ok if you tell me here and there to do something. But can you say it in a nicer way?"

This idea--basically treating your child like a good mature friend, makes them feel IMPORTANT, LOVED, AND CARED FOR. Many, many bad behaviors can be erased using this technique. I have to tell you that in my house, this transformed my crazy difficult child into a caring, sweet kid and improved our relationship and his self esteem. Buy the book for more info. I started this with my son at age four, it works even on little kids. G'luck
Back to top

amother
Powderblue


 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2015, 10:34 am
Thanks so much for the book recs and that detailed post! It sounds like something she'd be receptive to. We've already had half of that conversation, with the conclusion that she doesn't like when I boss her around but I didn't know how to take it further and what to do with that information.
Back to top

Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2015, 10:57 am
amother wrote:
Instead of saying "wipe your nose" I say "I notice your nose is running. Isn't it great that there's a tissue box near you?" Doesn't seem that effective.


You might try whispering to her, the same way you would an adult friend who had a piece of lettuce in her teeth or whatever. Make it seem like you're co-conspirators in good grooming by leaning in and whispering in her ear, "Maybe wipe your nose before anyone else notices."

I don't guarantee this will do the trick. Young kids with strong personalities tend to wipe their noses when they darned well think their noses need to be wiped -- and not one nano-second before.

You can also do a lot of preparatory coaching. This works well for forays into the larger world, but it can work well at home, too. "What would you like me to say when I notice your nose is running or you need to brush your hair?"

amother wrote:
I try to make her laugh. At bedtime I resist reminding her to put on her pajamas, because of course she already knows. So I say something like "hey why aren't you wearing your bathing suit yet? Don't you know you need a bathing suit for bed?"

However, while I might have patience to talk like this 75% of the time, DH only has patience to talk like this 15% of the time.


I agree all that extra communication can be exhausting, but these are the kids we were given. Other, less competent mommies were given easier kids, I guess!

There is an upside to this, though: as she gets older, she'll be more independent and able to do a lot more for you than similar young women of her age.

My DD is not only *very* financially independent, I can count on one hand the number of times I've set foot in a grocery store in the last few years. She does a fabulous job of shopping, including the substituting and menu re-arranging that husbands are so notorious for being unable to master.

Each year, as she gains more control over her life, you'll need to do less and less!

Try to think of yourself as a coach to this kind of child. Coaching is more difficult, but the coach is the one lifted into the air by the winning team!

amother wrote:
She frequently complains I have too many rules and I'm too bossy. I went through all my rules and pointed out they are all meant to keep her or other people healthy, happy and safe, and I have no rules that make her do something for no reason.

She is whip-smart bh and the oldest child so those factors probably combined to form her personality of wanting to be one of the adults, like you say.


Don't call them rules. Tell my DD that something is a "rule," and you might as well dangle a red cape in front of a bull.

I was warned by teachers, principals, and yentas of every stripe that a child who didn't "learn to obey rules" wouldn't place herself under the yoke of Torah.

Narishkeit, in my experience. In fact, of all my kids, DD has the most mature understanding and appreciation of mitzvahs. But she still doesn't do/not do things because Hashem "made a rule." Rather, she sees mitzvos as the ways Hashem has given Jews to enable them to come closer to Him and feel the spark of divinity in their physical lives.

How does this play out in day-to-day life? DD loves to snack in the living room. For better or worse, we live in a very old house that can't really be mouse-proofed. Unless we want to offer hospitality to the local mouse population, we have to make sure there are no crumbs or potential food sources.

Now, DD generally agrees and understands this, but she sometimes forgets or just gives in to the temptation to eat something yummy while reading a magazine with her feet on the couch. I don't say, "Um, remember the rule about not eating in the living room!" Rather, I say, "Can you please remember not to eat in the living room next time? Otherwise the mice will send out word that our doors are open!"

Is it a "rule"? Well, yes. But it works a lot better to wear one's authority lightly.

amother wrote:
I've noticed she doesn't like abrupt changes or being rushed so maybe that has something to do with it? Should I say "I need your coat in the closet, you can do it later if you're too tired now" and then remind her later? Would that work?


It might work sometimes; other times, not so much. What will work best is for her to be in charge of her own life, home, and possibly her own country. The good news is that she'll probably be very competent at running her life, her home, or her country. The bad news is that you have to guide her along in the meantime.

amother wrote:
Thanks accdac but I'm not looking to give her consequences, I use those when I'm low on patience but on the whole I don't think they are long-term effective. (Plus she starts saying them back to me LOL! "Mommy if you don't get me a fruit I'm not going to let you play with the doll.")


Of course! She wants to be your equal! She can't be your equal, nor should she be. But she can be your subordinate or your apprentice. That implies mutual respect and working toward a shared goal: that being a harmonious home and success in school and work. Help her find ways to be in charge without undermining you, and she'll repay the favor as you both get older!
Back to top

imasinger




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2015, 11:03 am
Fox, will you be my mommy?
Back to top

Iymnok




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2015, 11:09 am
My mother liked to tell us "I'm the head honcho"
When a child tells me I'm mean I tell them I went to mean school, or I'm sorry you're upset, or why do you feel that way.
When a child says something that bothers you, try to figure out what's so bothersome. (Usually is either true, you're not confident in the relationship or you're not confident about the complaint). It's the child's issue, leave yourself and your reasons out.
Back to top

Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2015, 11:40 am
I'll add one other thought:

The fewer "rules" you have, the more seriously they'll be taken.

The corollary to this is, "Say 'yes' whenever possible so that 'no' really means something."

There have been plenty of times over the years when DD has been mad at me for one reason or another -- usually because she disagreed with some decision I made. There have also been plenty of times when she said something hurtful about how I do things.

But that's okay. A strong child is bound to come into conflict with his/her parents at times. The key is to gently and consistently point that strength in the right direction.
Back to top

amother
Powderblue


 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2015, 2:07 pm
Fox, thank you so much for your posts! I will really go over the longer ones carefully and try your advice.

I am already a pretty relaxed, easygoing parent. I'm not the one who calls them rules, SHE'S the one who calls them rules. Lol. "Why is there a rule to take a bath? I don't want to take a bath." "Why is there a rule I have to get dressed in the morning before I eat and play? There are TOO MANY RULES!" Lol.

I really think you hit the nail on the head that she wants to be treated like an adult. Because when I ask her to take a napkin and wipe her own spill, she won't do it because she can't reach the napkins, because she's too tired, etc. But when I ask her to give her toddler sister a napkin so that the toddler can wipe up a spill, she's happy to comply. She is always eagerly helping out the toddler with anything that goes wrong or anything she wants.
Back to top

asmileaday




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2015, 2:33 pm
Powderblue just wanted to let you know you are not alone! I have a ds like that. Funnyface thanks for the detailed example. Excellent book I've read it too. If you want to read more there's "no drama discipline" and "whole brain child" both of which I found to be very enlightening.

There's no quick fix I wish there was! We need lots of patience and lots of understanding and talking. Good luck!
Back to top

tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2015, 3:33 pm
I sound a lot like your daughter. I have a really hard time being told what to do and I am much happier being an adult than a child. My parents were pretty good at dealing with this but not perfect ( I'm not blaming them).
Back to top

seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2015, 7:20 pm
I feel this odd urge to clarify that I'm not OP, lol. I almost could have written it, except the part about being able to phrase things positively 75% of the time (halevai!) and some other minor details. Right down to the 2-year-old whose trademark phrase is "Okay!" It is VERY hard not to make unconscious comparisons, though I think that while there are personality differences there is also an age thing - I'm sure the 2-year-old won't be saying "OK" to everything when she's 5, though hopefully she won't be as prickly as the first one.

I'm going to respectfully part-disagree with some of the others here, though I do also defer to their greater experience and probably also greater skill and wisdom. I do think that it is best to avoid confrontation wherever possible by using choices, positive phrasing, game-style, whatever. However, I think it sounds like you are afraid of asserting your authority because these delicate kids just can't cope with it. I think they need to LEARN how to cope with it, and the only way that happens is by being firm. It is an ongoing struggle sometimes because kids like ours (assuming they're as similar as they sound) need to test you constantly rather than just be convinced that your policy is sticking, but I try to make it clear to DD that there is NO NEGOTIATING PERIOD when Mom tells you to do something. She does need a lot of respect and validation, so I do my best to communicate that respectfully as often as I can muster, but I still hold firm. I will tell her that I will gladly listen to what she wants - AFTER she does what she's told. And I have told her that the reason is because children need to listen to parents. I am not afraid of saying this. It is true - it is the way the world is set up and the way the Torah prescribes. I don't make it a power trip and it's not about me (ideally; can't say I don't slip up sometimes and take it personally) but I have told her (not every time. Just enough that she knows. She is smart and has a good memory) that she needs to practice listening right away because it is good for her personal development. And I fully believe this. I think that the habit of automatically trying to negotiate and argue everything will not serve her well in life - I know this because I have the same streak myself. It is hard to control even as an adult, and half the time the one I'm fighting with is myself. Not fun. So I think it is good for her to learn to reign in this instinct when she is young. Most of the time if she just does the thing, the argument dissolves and she (hopefully, eventually will) learns that arguing is just not necessary, doing what you have to do is easier and is not a bad thing. I know this is a good skill for me as an adult - if I just DO the dishes/laundry/paperwork I am done faster and have a much more pleasant life than if I avoid it, put it off, worry about it, groan about having to do it, etc. So hopefully by (respectfully, empathetically) insisting on this, I will help her develop new habits and mindsets that will serve her well for life. I also know from experience that the argumentative streak does not go over well with most teachers at all, and since I am not about to homeschool this little dynamo, she had better lose to 'tude before things get nasty. She already has intervention in school to get her following the rules there and it seems to have successfully nipped this in the bud.

In general, but especially for these kids I think, actions speak louder than words. Because these kids LOVE words and if they can rope you into a good argument they've made it. So as much as they dislike consequences, bring em on. An appropriate, logical, and concrete consequence goes a lot farther than prolonged yakking about it. And hopefully they learn that you mean business and then you have to actually use the consequences less often. My DD often has meltdowns over consequences but I still think in the scheme of things they are better than nagging, threatening, arguing, etc. If a particular consequence is especially triggery, I try to think of something that will go better, but still be firm and clear. (e.g. if she responds viscerally to having an object taken away from her, then rather than put my hands in the scene I will tell her SHE has to hand it over and if she hands it over nicely she can have it back in a few hours, but if I have to ask again then it will be a few days.)

I have all but given up on things like tissue use embarrassed It's just too much of a battle for now. I still issue my reminders but I don't push it because with this one you need to pick your battles really carefully.

Every time I read your OP it sounds more and more like me. LOL. I do not have it all figured out at all. We have a long way to go and many challenges, and it's possible I have the wrong idea and that's why we have some other issues now. But these are my 2 cents.
Back to top

seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2015, 7:26 pm
Also, regarding rules - you say your kid complains of too many rules but you say they are all for the sake of keeping them safe, healthy, etc. What if you streamline the whole thing by making bigger rules like "Be safe" and then the kid can feel more in control of figuring out how to follow the rule? Assuming they have enough knowledge and intelligence to apply, which I bet they do. For example, in the street you might say "Everyone hold hands now - remember, our rule is 'Be safe!'" Instead of "you have to hold my hand because the rule is hold hands in the street. And now the rule is buckle up in the car. And now the rule is get your scooter off the floor." If it all falls under one rule the child can still balk at what they have to do but there will be less to complain about "too many rules" and they can feel more empowered that you're trusting them to understand what's safe/unsafe.
Back to top

asmileaday




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2015, 7:34 pm
Seeker you are right that authority needs to be asserted.
In my case I was told to validate their feelings whilst asserting authority.
For example you ask the child to get into pajamas and they say no! You get down on their eye level and say "I see it's really difficult for you to put on pjs right now, you wish you can still play etc... you still need to get into pjs though".
You validate 2-3 minutes and if there's still resistance you then consequence. But not in an exasperated voice, just firm and lovingly.

Many times validating diffuses/prevents an explosion. Can't say it works all the time but it has definitely eliminated a lot of explosions here.
Back to top

amother
Burlywood


 

Post Mon, Jun 22 2015, 8:06 pm
I have a dd like this too. She's a preteen now and things are easier but 5 years ago I also posted on Imamother asking how to handle her. Fox wrote me a similar post to what she wrote above. Fox, I have to thank you for changing the way I parented her. Reading what you wrote made me understand her and learn how to handle her better. Things are so much easier now.
And when things were hard I always reminded myself of what you said about how one day she will be so capable and organized and able to run any business or household easily. I already see the payoff now when I watch my dd organize a backyard camp for her younger siblings or bake a cake or plan a menu. I can see how she will be capable of taking over and taking charge in a way that my other kids would never do.

Bottom line is: don't fight with your dd. treat her like she's an adult. And constantly phrase rules and requests as something she needs to do for her own sake, not for your sake. Ie. She takes a bath so SHE can be clean not because YOU want her to be clean. She cleans up so she can learn and gain experience in how to clean not so YOU can have a clean house without having to do it yourself. Etc.

Always keep your patience even when you really can't. And phrase requests as reminders.
Such as its almost time to get in pajamas. Don't forget about your pajamas.
Or "I see a coat on the floor. Oops. " and "it's important for children to remember about hanging up their coats. " dont talk directly to her. Talk to the walls and let her hear you, that way you aren't asking her directly.
Also try the "I see shprintzy cleaning up so nicely" to motivate her to join in
Back to top

baltomom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 23 2015, 8:05 am
I also have some kids who don't like being told what to do (though perhaps not as extreme as your DD). I've found the techniques in "How to Talk so Kids will Listen and Listen so Kids will Talk" to be helpful. It's worthwhile reading. Good luck!
Back to top

naomi2




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 23 2015, 9:04 am
baltomom wrote:
I also have some kids who don't like being told what to do (though perhaps not as extreme as your DD). I've found the techniques in "How to Talk so Kids will Listen and Listen so Kids will Talk" to be helpful. It's worthwhile reading. Good luck!


very good recomendation! there are lots of tips in the book.
some ideas from the book:
describe what you see-"I see a runny nose."
use one word "chaya, tissue..."
its basically all ideas of how to get your child to cooperate by fostering respect for her as an autonomous person.
Back to top
Page 1 of 2 1  2  Next Recent Topics




Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling

Related Topics Replies Last Post
Chosson's mother told me this
by amother
66 Mon, Nov 27 2023, 6:51 pm View last post
Shaitel macher just told me that my wig is beyond repair
by amother
0 Fri, Nov 24 2023, 3:58 am View last post
Someone just told me she charges $800 for a wig cut
by amother
19 Tue, Aug 01 2023, 10:09 pm View last post
Funniest thing someone told you recently?
by amother
9 Tue, Jul 25 2023, 9:16 pm View last post