Put pareve sink in new kitchen (new home) or not?

Orchid

Wed, Jun 24 2015, 7:47 pm

YES. That is my fantasy. Our dirty parve dishes end up just sitting on the counter until someone has a chance to wash them (cutting boards, knives, empty used containers, measuring spoons etc.) How nice to be able to put them in a sink.

Ema of 5

Wed, Jun 24 2015, 7:58 pm

tigerwife wrote:

I say yes to the sink but no need for the dishwasher, unless you actually have a set of pareve dishes. Just for convenience' sake. I grew up with an island that had a sink in middle so I guess I'm used to the look.

We just redid our kitchen a few months ago. I have to say I totally disagree. It's not just for PARVE things. You can also put glass in PARVE dishwasher, whether used for milchig or fleishig. Just make sure not to put glass used for milchig and glass used for fleishig at the same time :-)
We have our sink in the middle of the counter. We got more expensive sinks that don't have a lip (they go under the counter) and I think that's what makes all the difference in how it looks. There's plenty of room behind the sink, and there are two full sides. If I knew how to put a picture in a post I would :-)

PinkFridge

Wed, Jun 24 2015, 8:03 pm

Personally, I might do it because I bake a lot. But I don't know if it's necessary for you.
Do you have times that you find a third sink would be nice? I would love a second sink (I have one, big, treif one) for obvious reasons, but especially for when my son comes home; he prefers to wash his hands in the sink vs. the bathroom.
So despite the 2 sink shtetl kitchen line*, a second sink is a no-brainer. Do you have any specific need for a third? Because I might not be so quick to get it.

I hope everything goes smoothly, and that you enjoy your home for many years to come (surely it will be such a makom of chessed and kedusha it'll be transplanted Wink

) and that it be filled with simcha and nachas and kol tuv.*Maya, you might like this line from Rabbi Frand. When he got a new refrigerator (this was years ago) they offered a free ice dispenser. Who would turn that down? Then he realized that this would be the bar for his kids. Growing up with an ice dispenser (maybe it was a water thing, I don't remember) was going to be their norm and getting a fridge with anything less would be a step down for them.

Rubber Ducky

Wed, Jun 24 2015, 8:06 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

... *Maya, you might like this line from Rabbi Frand. When he got a new refrigerator (this was years ago) they offered a free ice dispenser. Who would turn that down? Then he realized that this would be the bar for his kids. Growing up with an ice dispenser (maybe it was a water thing, I don't remember) was going to be their norm and getting a fridge with anything less would be a step down for them.

It's getting hard find ANY refrigerator, or at least any large one, that doesn't come with an icemaker.

Rubber Ducky

Wed, Jun 24 2015, 8:19 pm

With a 9-foot long island you'll still have plenty of work space even if you put in the sink. The question is whether you will use it if you have it, since you do very little pareve now, and most people old enough for the monicker "OOTBubby" find it hard to change their cooking style.

What do you expect the island to be used for? Prep? Second cook? Serving area? Prep or second cook (like visiting adult children) would argue for the pareve sink; serving area for additional counter. Breaking up the visual line with a sink is IMHO less important than function.

OOTBubby

Wed, Jun 24 2015, 8:57 pm

Rubber Ducky wrote:

I would expect to use the island mainly as a staging ground which is how I used the (much smaller) one in my old house. I'd be cooking on either the milchig or fleishig side and would gather all of the ingredients on the island counter behind me.

Even with guests, there isn't much of a 2nd cook issue.

I'm pretty much leaning towards doing, but it has been very helpful seeing the opinions here.

Maya

Wed, Jun 24 2015, 9:04 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

*Maya, you might like this line from Rabbi Frand. When he got a new refrigerator (this was years ago) they offered a free ice dispenser. Who would turn that down? Then he realized that this would be the bar for his kids. Growing up with an ice dispenser (maybe it was a water thing, I don't remember) was going to be their norm and getting a fridge with anything less would be a step down for them.

Thanks

This particular anecdote is about material things, but it's worse when it becomes about frumkeit. Someone I know just bought new appliances, and couldn't get the ones she wanted because people told her that now everything has to have a "Shabbos mode." Whoever heard of Shabbos mode five or ten years ago? Now if you don't get one with Shabbos mode, you're a shiegetz.

I believe the same thing will happen with pareve sinks. Like I said, you're kitchen will be treif without one. Rolling Eyes

OOTBubby

Wed, Jun 24 2015, 9:07 pm

Maya, you're wrong about Shabbos mode. If technology had remained the same as it was 10 (or more) years ago, then you'd be right that we didn't need it. But, it is due to the changes in technology (where you can no longer just unscrew a lightbulb to keep anything assur from happening when you open the fridge) that it has become necessary. If you have old appliances, no problem. But if you get new ones, there really are reasons it is needed. Someone I know had to make major modifications when he moved into his house because his fridge wasn't Shabbos mode compliant and as is it could not be opened on Shabbos.

summer0808

Wed, Jun 24 2015, 9:08 pm

I wish I had a pareve sink & dishwasher. I bake somewhat and it's great to be able to put the mixing bowls and utensils in and presto$ clean kitchen. Also it would be great for all the containers. Now I have to consider them all fleishig because they went into the dishwasher. If you have the space, do it!

Maya

Wed, Jun 24 2015, 9:09 pm

OOTBubby wrote:

It is my understanding that Shabbos mode is not about the light, but I could be wrong?

OOTBubby

Wed, Jun 24 2015, 9:11 pm

Maya wrote:

It is my understanding that Shabbos mode is not about the light.

Yes, that is exactly my point. In the old models, the only problem was the light. You took the bulb and you were good to go. With current models, opening the door causes all other kinds of things to happen; motors/fans, cycles, etc. so you need the Shabbos mode to prevent that from happening when you open the door. It does of course take care of the light problem at the same time so that you don't need to remove the bulb.

Maya

Wed, Jun 24 2015, 9:13 pm

OOTBubby wrote:

The motors and fans always started up when the door was opened for more than a few moments. That's certainly not a new thing, and nobody made it an issue.

OOTBubby

Wed, Jun 24 2015, 9:18 pm

Maya wrote:

The motors and fans always started up when the door was opened for more than a few moments. That's certainly not a new thing, and nobody made it an issue.

Correct again, BUT it was random so according to most poskim it was okay. Many poskim in EY hold that it is not and in fact chareidim there often only open the fridge when the motor is running.

With today's refrigerators, it does not have that randomness and opening the doors always causes things to happen. If you'd like, you can read all about on the Star-K website. Let me know if you'd like me to find the link for you.

Maya

Wed, Jun 24 2015, 9:23 pm

OOTBubby wrote:

Interesting. Thanks.

Now can you find a source which states that three sinks are mandatory in 2015? (just kidding.) Smile

imasinger

Wed, Jun 24 2015, 9:23 pm

We have a pareve sink and counter. My only complaint is that it is the smallest area, yet I do the bulk of my cooking as pareve.

Having a pareve sink really helps limit the amount of mistakes that can happen, because there is a place to toss the pareve dishes. We don't have many mistakes at the table, because I plate hot food in the kitchen, and cold serving dishes can be washed in cold water.

So, I'd vote yes.

Why don't you flip a coin, then see how you feel about what comes up?

sky

Wed, Jun 24 2015, 9:44 pm

I WISH I had a pareve dishwasher.
I dream of baking challah and making potato kugel and sticking everything in the dishwasher...

True in the shtetl they didn't have 2 sinks, but they also had one pot they had kasher for Pesach, and washed their clothing by hand.
Perhaps I should spend the time kashering all my pots before pesach as part of turning over. No thanks.
If I can take convenience I would do it in a second. I only have one sink now and it is a pain in the neck.
[If I didn't have the space I'd skip the milchig dishwasher and only get pareve]

Last edited by sky on Wed, Jun 24 2015, 9:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

tigerwife

Wed, Jun 24 2015, 9:44 pm

eema of 3 wrote:

Hmmm, I did not think about glass at all! Good point!

m in Israel

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 2:42 am

Maya wrote:

Interesting. Thanks.

Now can you find a source which states that three sinks are mandatory in 2015? (just kidding.) Smile

Just to expand OOTBubby's explanation, a lot of it has to do with the way appliances are becoming more energy efficient. Most refrigerators nowadays don't have just a thermostat -- they have complicated computerized monitors that use the opening door as a trigger to adjust things like the compressor speed, etc. in order to save energy. That is were the problem comes in. (With a thermostat, while it was true that opening the door warmed up the inside and may have made it more likely for the compressor to go on sooner, it was not an automatic direct result of opening the door, and therefore was allowed by most poskim.)

OP -- I vote for yes sink, no dishwasher. We had 1 sink only for the first 10 years of our marriage, and managed fine, but it was such a difference to move to a place with 2 sinks. We recently bought a home and the previous owners had a parve sink as well. When I first saw it I thought it was a waste -- 2 sinks were exciting enough for me Smile

But now that we are here it really is very helpful. I use it when I'm baking, and for things like salads and dips and I find it very convenient. I wouldn't prioritize it over counter space in a tiny kitchen, but if you have the space, I think it is worth it.