Put pareve sink in new kitchen (new home) or not?

Raisin

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 4:27 am

Maya wrote:

Thanks

This particular anecdote is about material things, but it's worse when it becomes about frumkeit. Someone I know just bought new appliances, and couldn't get the ones she wanted because people told her that now everything has to have a "Shabbos mode." Whoever heard of Shabbos mode five or ten years ago? Now if you don't get one with Shabbos mode, you're a shiegetz.

I believe the same thing will happen with pareve sinks. Like I said, you're kitchen will be treif without one. Rolling Eyes

shabbos mode is because very modern ovens have features that make them unable to be used on shabbos or yom tov. My fleishig oven turns off automatically after a certain amount of hours. My less fancy milchig oven stays on forever. So I can leave my milchig oven on over yom tov on a low light, but not my fleishig one. If I had shabbos mode on my fleishig oven, it would override that annoying feature.

Raisin

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 4:35 am

If I had plenty of space I would go for the extra sink and dishwasher. (how much more expensive is a dishwasher then a cupboard? and it can be used to store stuff anyway) I waste so much food because I do not have pareve utensils except for baking. Pasta, rice, salads, stir fries could all be use with milchig or fleishig meals.

maybe you could design the sink that it can be transformed into extra counter space with a cover??

I grew up with milchig and fleshig sinks but like most newlyweds we had a apartment with just one sink. It was annoying to deal with but I figured it out and did not think it was less kosher.

saw50st8

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 7:11 am

I would put in an extra sink and then get a drawer dishwasher. It's not a full size, but you might be able to fit it under the sink.

I think with a 9' island, "breaking up" the space won't be a big deal.

Can we see the overall plans for the kitchen? That would also make a difference.

Ema of 5

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 7:37 am

saw50st8 wrote:

It probably won't fit under the sink because of the pipes. But yes, getting a smaller drawer dishwasher would be a good option.

rosehill

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 7:42 am

For perspective: for my first 12 years in my current home, I had about a 9 foot square kitchen that was unimproved since it was built in 1960. One sink, one 20 inch wall oven, and a linoleum floor that could make you vomit. And I had guests, and made Yom tov, and managed.

So I understand what a first world problem we're discussing!

Whilst I would LOVE a pareve sink, see if there's another place to put it. My current kitchen has an island about half the size of your planned one, and (on the odd occasion that it's clean) it's quite the focal point. The large expanse of granite is mesmerizing, and it really would be a shame to break it up. No matter what is going on at the perimeter, the eye is drawn to the island, so you'd have to be careful to keep the sink clean, and put the drain board and drying dishes away.

A pareve dishwasher would not work for the way I operate, because I tend to use the same bowl/knife/equipment over and over in a short amount of time, and wouldn't want to wait for a dishwasher cycle.

Rubber Ducky

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 7:56 am

summer0808 wrote:

I wish I had a pareve sink & dishwasher. I bake somewhat and it's great to be able to put the mixing bowls and utensils in and presto$ clean kitchen. Also it would be great for all the containers. Now I have to consider them all fleishig because they went into the dishwasher. If you have the space, do it!

Some Rabbeim — like mine! Very Happy

— allow a DW to be used for both one gender and pareve (ie, milchik and pareve, or fleishik and pareve) as separate loads. as long as the trap in the bottom doesn't have food on it. No running an empty load in between, just check (and clean if necessary) the trap. I run a few pareve loads each week. My Rav is Agudah. Might be worth asking.

rosehill

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 8:11 am

Rubber Ducky wrote:

Some Rabbeim — like mine! Very Happy

Is that only for stainless steel interior?

Rubber Ducky

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 8:28 am

My Rav did not say the interior of the DW must be stainless, although mine is. But this is really an ask your LOR question. There are different mesoras regarding kashrus. My LOR told me (and others) that it's OK, but he didn't pasken for you — you would need to ask your own Rav.

saw50st8

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 10:00 am

I think I would have the sink in the island. This way, you can wash/cut fruit and veggies as you are serving it to kids at the island (my mother does this all the time with my kids). You can still interact with them while prepping their snack.

I know you didn't ask about this, but personally, I would remove one of the swinging doors of #18. Do you think you will really use that screen much? That means your bathroom will be blocked by the door if the screen is open.

Would you consider a pocket door for the bathroom?

OOTBubby

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 10:04 am

saw50st8 wrote:

Thanks. Note that I am OOTBubby -- kids all married an out of the house.

In fact the door your refer to has been removed -- there is no screen door there. Then the bathroom is not blocked at all; though it is very unlikely the bathroom would be in use when that door is open. No pocket doors for me (I really don't care for them) other than in places where there is no choice.

saw50st8

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 10:10 am

OOTBubby wrote:

I saw that, that's why I referenced my mother :-)

I assume your grandchildren visit a lot and that would be a good use for it. I also think you might like prepping veggies at the island more than at the side counters (for space reasons). So having a good place to cut/wash veggies, even if you aren't using it for pareve purposes is nice.

OOTBubby

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 10:15 am

Since you now have the sketch of the plans -- let me get another opinion. What shape table should I put in the breakfast room and should it be parallel to the island or perpendicular to the island? The open space lends itself best to a round table (there is probably enough room for a 72" round), but I am not sure that I'd want a round table. And note that the majority of the time the only people at the table are me and DH.

lfab

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 10:26 am

I vote put in the sink but not the dishwasher, especially if you don't do tons of pareve cooking. I would also say to put the sink all the way to one side this way you have the benefit of the sink but still have a large countertop space to work with. I know it's a matter of taste but I actually like the look of the sink to the side (as seen in the pics below) better than the look of a sink in the middle breaking up the space.

http://cdn.hyeriders.com/14299.....a.jpg

http://makerland.org/wp-conten.....n.jpg

http://draftingcafe.com/Portal.....g.jpg

OOTBubby

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 10:27 am

lfab wrote:

Thanks. Those links are helpful to get a picture what it would look if not centered.

alef12

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 10:37 am

Go for the parve sink! It's a wonderful luxury and you definitely have the space for it.
I have one (and dishwasher ;-) ) and use it probably the most in my kitchen. I grew up with the idea of everything that could be made parve made that way and even when I had a tiny single sink kitchen I had a parve sink rack and basin.

Making everything that isn't actually meat or dairy can be very convenient. For example, last night I made a huge parve pot of pasta and took off some to serve with meatballs. The rest will be probably be eaten by the kids tonight with melted cheese. We had some peas with our meatballs last night that I had cooked the previous evening for the kids to eat with a dairy meal. The vegetable soup we had last night was made last week in my large parve soup pot and frozen in parve containers. I heated it up in a meat pot because I had room in my meat dishwasher to wash it there afterwards. I could also easily have heated it in a parve pot and then just ladled it into the meat bowls before carrying them to the table.

In short, parve gives you OPTIONS. Yes, I totally recognize that it is a huge luxury and is not NECESSARY for kashrut but since you definitely have the space (I have a similarly sized island and the parve sink does not imo take away from the "look" or the counter space) I would suggest you go for it.

OOTBubby

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 10:44 am

sky wrote:

Also, if you don't have a washing sink off the dining room having an additional sink on the island may be helpful.

Yes, that is actually one of the considerations which I neglected to mention. We will not have a washing sink in the dining room.

amother

Plum

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 11:17 am

I am so happy with ,my parve sink! if you have the space I totally recommend it. I do ALL my baking parve (bread, challah, toast, cakes, cookies) , all salads , sidedishes (potatoes, kugls, rice, couscous, fervel...) - we eat a lot of milchigs throughout he week, and only serve meat on shabbes. I might just add a pesto with cheese to some of the noodles, and use the rest for a kugl for shabbes, without having to think in advance... same for sandwiches: I might serve them with butter and egg and later use the same bread for breadkugl or for breadcrumbs on schnitzel...this way we hardly deal with leftovers .. I agree with posters who say dont make it a small sink to only wash hands in... make it regular size and wash the parve dishes in it too...thats what works for us at least.